Thanks for the feedback! It's all useful. I'm just going to try and justify some of it in light of your comments, likewise, please don't take this as me ignoring them, just trying to explain where I am coming from.


Firstly, and this also applies to some stuff below with regards to the differences to the DoS book, I wanted this Supplement to be able to stand alone, the only external content referenced being the free GW BotFA Supplement. Myself, and many others I know in real life and online, don't own the DoS book, and I want this supplement to be able to be used by anyone without any real cost. This is why I've (knowingly in some cases, unwittingly in others) replaced profiles from that book. As I can't reproduce actual GW content but still wanted a complete list, the only option was to change or add to some profiles.

As for the Orcs themselves, my reasoning for the stat differences is twofold: Firstly, to provide some variety within the list, as I think the single Orc Warrior profile doesn't really represent the many types of Orc in the film, and from a gaming perspective, I'm of the opinion more options is always better. So you have two different profiles, both slightly abstracted, to make things more interesting than just 'Orc with X'.

The other reason is purely from the films; The Moria Orcs (ie Azog's army from Moria) appear to hold formation through most of the battle, and in general fight in a more military manner than many Orc forces in the films/books, hence they got the options to best represent this; pikes, shields and bows. On the other hand, Bolg's army as they arrive at the battle seem more about just getting stuck into a melee, so they get option/stats that reward this, such as 2-handers and throwing weapons. I may consider giving them the Heavy Armour option, but I am really trying to create two distinct options with few overlapping options.

See above about this book being intended as a standalone. Also, you'll note my take on the Militia with regards to their special rule is different from the GW one, I feel it's a thematic addition and works better in the context of a fuller army list and their interaction with the Refugees.


The Fight and costing of the trolls has already been noted, and will be amended. No argument there. However, having the two profiles was again deliberate, to create more choice. I actually considered adding a Cave Troll profile as well, for even more variety, but I think 2 covers it. I'm sorry to say this won't be going, this army list is all about expanding the options, given how visually varied Azog's force is on screen. You mention how people should not have the ability to take a S8 D8 Troll, that is actually the reason the cost is higher than the stats would indicate, because it is a very deadly model. So I think it's balanced in light of that, but thanks for the comments.



I'll look at renaming that, then, and have a dig through the various companion books for something less Warhammer. Could you elaborate on how it doesn't feel right? Is it the way it's put together, or the approach to design? I'm very interested to hear your thoughts on this, as it could be a significant issue.


Thanks. The problem here is that profile is meant to represent anything from a crossbred Warg to a massive siege beast (if you have the BotFA Art and Design book, take a look at the Evil Creatures section in there, there's a huge range of stuff). I will take a look at making the Great War Beast profile more profile (monster levels), to cover a wider range of stuff.



Can't recally what this one is? Got a picture/description of it?


Not sure, I'll take a look and run some tests, but I want them to be something that really has to work as a swarm or attacking targets of opportunity to have any major effect, as per the film. This is why they have a quite low cost for their stats (but might get a point dropped pending testing)


Easily done.


Can't take credit for this, it came up in discussion elsewhere, but it is a very cool rule, glad you like it.

Neither of which are in this list. Not saying you're wrong, but again it comes back to making this list work in and of itself.


I'll consider both of these, with the relevant points boosts. I was thinking of a glass cannon type unit, low defence but killy, but maybe your ideas fit better.

Simplicity was the only reason we left this out, as having all 13 models on the board all with unique rules could get confusing. But I'll add in a note you should feel free to use the named profiles if you want to.



Hah, an innocent mistake on my part there. One of the art books I was using as a refererence referred to something like 'smaller trolls, olog-hai almost'. But I'll fix the name. As for stats/Monster rules, I went back and forth on that; In the end I lifted the Half Troll profile with some edits, Monster type would require a few stat/points tweaks. I'll take a look, though.


Thanks, for the comments and the feedback. It's given me plenty of ideas for the next edit.

_________________
Free fan-made BotFA Supplement

Thanks for taking the time to check it out so thoroughly and supply constructive feedback, it is a community based project anyway.

I personally don't mind the Gundubad Orc models, and they can feasibly used as Moria orcs, which are also seen in the AUJ flashback. The thing is that the models and profiles came out a whole year before the film, so i don't know how GW would have known the details and intricacies of the film. The models do look perfect for the main bulk of the army which is Moria orcs/from that region. I don't know why GW called them Gundubad. Also the different profiles were created to have a nice variation of troops represented in PJ's concepts that may not have fully come across in the film.

Troll point fair enough, issue is being addressed i think.

The wrecker limbs do represent the bofur troll arms, unless i am very mistaken.it's just a concise way of wording which connotes exactly what they are.

The random beasts are cool, but it is hard to make a profile for such a diverse range of creatures, especially as some will be weaker/stronger than others. The profile is designed to be able to make a unit with different strengths and weaknesses, represent the diversity formerly mentioned.

Bats' strengths lay in numbers, bring swarms of the things!

Yeah, name of troll shouldn't be hard to change but it does seem they have the role of besieging and acting as a catalyst for the taking of Dale.

Glad you like the Laketown refugees profile, works well in game as well.

Orc outriders give the chance for some cav without having to worry about another list. This especially apparent in scenarios as it cuts down on saying what models you can't use. Also makes it more well rounded imo.

I like the idea of two wounds, though not sure about terror. Based off Uruk Hai beserkers they seem alright.

Good point about the nazgul, and was thinking of creating new profiles for them. However it may get a bit confusing with so many different things to remember. However, as house rules you can adapt them as you like.

Wait, sorry. Could you expand that Olog Hai point, didn't quite catch it the first few times! No twas a joke, but thanks for pointing it out, i'm sure Paradigm won't mind changing it. I think it was a way to make them sound better without a boring name?

Thanks for taking the time to recognise this! It has been good and corrections are necessary as we all make mistakes, unfortunately...

Made a few tweaks (new document will be uploaded towards the end of the week once more feedback comes in)

Fixed Fight Values and costs on Trolls
Renamed Siege Troll to War Troll
Renamed Olog-Hai to Ogres, as apparently that's VERY important! Also given them Monster status, and a price tag of 30 points. Functionally, they are now lesser trolls rather than better Orcs.
Ramrider cost fixed to 19ppm.
Great War Beast buffed to 40 points, confers greater stat boosts and the Monster type.
Orc Beserkers given 2W and Terror, upped to 15 points.

_________________
Free fan-made BotFA Supplement

wondering why the iron hill dwarves got D6 with shield though....

btw king´s guard should get hammers, go watch the movie closely you´ll see em with hammers

ram´s should work like mahud camels impale as it makes sense, on the charge a S4 hit. they are nasty when on charge, look at those heads (the general concept of them should be the good side "mahud" cav, like Morgul knights are for Dol Amroth)

I do think Dain´s headbutt should be a special strike hit and if he wins combat 1 enemy model suffer a S4 hit, if he survives he would get probe, models with S6 or above would be unnaffected by this special strike although can be still affected by the S4 hit.
This is like an auto bash special rule and wouldnt be 2 far off what you saw on movie.


I would risk the pig giving D6 as its an armoured boar, bettewn fat layer and armour, its very thick (you know how boar hide works I hope) so to give to dwarven steeds more armour than other races seems normal as their armoured steeds are generally better protected.

They are D6 base (D4 for being a Dwarf and +2 for Dwarf Armour). The Shield (and pike) is then a free option that can be exchanged for a crossbow. Basically, this is there to stop these guys being able to take Shields and Crossobws, as D7 crossbowmen would be frankly obnoxious.


Honestly, I wasn't basing them off the movie, I was just trying to come up with an elite profile to add to the list. But I'll change it to 2-handed weapon, that should allow people to pick axes or hammers.


This idea I like! I'll see about adding in something like this!



So you're suggesting he fogoes his norma 3-4 attacks for one S4 hit and knocking the enemy automatically prone? I can see how that would work, I'll have to think about it as it looks to be more use against Heroes than Troops, which is in many ways the opposite of what I was going for. Thanks for the idea, though, I'll have a play and see if I can work some of it in.

That's doable. D6 with 2 wounds is tought for a mount, but then this is Dain.

Thanks for the feedback.

_________________
Free fan-made BotFA Supplement

V2.0 Is Here!

See the link for a list of major changes, and thanks for all the feedback so far. Keep it coming, guys!

_________________
Free fan-made BotFA Supplement

Are you going to update this for the extended edition? This has been reliable in the past and is collected from comments, interviews and books etc
.
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/The_Hobbit_Extended_Edition

I shall do an EE update if it's neccessary, but I am also trying to avoid spoilers, so it won't be until the DVD release of that I'm afraid.

_________________
Free fan-made BotFA Supplement

I've looked at your second edition, and read the responses to my feedback. The true Olog-hai of Mordor and Dol Guldur are grateful. And I do have the Chronicles: Art & Design book - it was a birthday present.

Why do the Iron Hills Warriors have to pay 2pts for their wargear? Just curious, is it because of the special rules?
I'd comment on the crossbows too, but that's Jackson's fault not yours.

Why don't you just say Dain has the Burly special rule?
Head-butt and Taunt are great addition of course.

I still think you should get rid of the Lake Town Guards/Militia & Gundabad Orcs and just say (as the official sourcebooks do in these cases, and you do in your Iron Hills list) that the following can be included as part of the list. You can keep the extra special rule etc on top of them as upgrades (or downgrades if you want?)

You mentioned in the above post that you wondered why Games Workshop called their elite armoured Orcs Gundabad Orcs and not Moria Orcs. There is a very good reason for that. They are Gundabad Orcs. The army that Azog leads are from Mount Gundabad and have been stationed in Dol Guldur, they have never been in Moria. Balin also says that Azog is "a huge Gundabad Orcs" Maybe you need to rewatch the last 2 films? Or perhaps, because they look similar to the Moria Orcs that fought at the Battle of the Dimrill Dale? Or perhaps becaue you thought they had Cave Trolls from Moria (even though It is mentioned that the Trolls were bred at Dol Guldur) If you want to call the elite ones something other than Gundabad Orcs for some reason (I have no qualms against 2 different Orc statlines), then call them Dol Guldur Orcs, because they have never been in Moria. That wasn't a rant by the way, as the error is not as grievous as the Ogre issue.

Also, I think the Goblin Mercenaries could get Chittering Hordes special rule?

Re Wrecker Limbs. The problem is the word Wrecker. It sounds like something I'd only find in Warhammer or a Miley Cyrus video. I realise that you are referring to the Bofur Troll, and will remind you that a weapon with a chain and a spiky metal ball at the end is called a flail. Flail Arms is what I've called it in my profile, though you may prefer Flail Limbs?
If instead you are referring to the Troll with shields that it used scythes, please just say.

Also, I didn't mention it before, But I like they way you give the options for Howdahs and Orcs/Goblins to ride on the Trolls. It works well thematically given the film.

The Catapult costs too much, the cost should be no more than 50pts if you want people to actually take them.

Re the Bats, I still think they should have 2 attacks & wounds (because I don't think a model that has to go on a 40mm base [which it would do on account of the size of the wings] should be weaker than a Warg, except for the Broodlings of course) but, looking at your profile, how about a rule were Bats always suffer a -1 to the Duel rolls if they are not within 3" of another Bat? I think this works better.

And I think the warbeasts should also be, at their weakest stronger than a Warg, unless you are talking only about the prehistoric Terror Bird ones or the Giant Ape ones. The sabre-tooths would be stronger than a Warg but still weaker than the Great War Beast Profile. That said, because of the upgrades, you could just make it better anyway, unless you had the Terror Bird or Ape. You can ignore this comment then, I've only left it in to show I acknowledge the profile and I like its customisable nature. Also, I wish they had made it into the film, I'd have loved an official GW model of one.

Also, why can't the Evil Army in "So it Begin" contain any Gundabad Orcs, even though they were there in the film?

I have no further comments at present, except to again thank you for the hard work.

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Thanks again for taking the time to provide such thorough feedback!


Yeah, it's for the rules. That way, they still come out at 12ppm with Pike and Shield (which playtesting has shown is fair for that) but aren't overpaying if they take just Crossbows or Pike OR shield. I guess it seems odd a first, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from.


I could just give him Burly, but I wanted to make the weapon something unique. I'll consider changing it for the sake of brevity in the next draft, though.




Right, again an error on my part. I was thinking Azog=took over Moria therefore Azog's army are from Moria. Can't think why I didn't fix this earlier, I'll make them Dol Guldur Orcs.


I did give this some thought, and figured that they would lose that in a trade-off for getting Armour (they can still buy Spears, which I honestly think is a little fairer than everyone counting as having them).



Well, I was using it as a catch-all term for any kind of troll with big hitty things attached to them. I'll rename it to something more literal in the next draft.

Thanks. I think it could be a pretty fun rule in practice.


Can easily be done. I guess as having it Troll-mounted is a curse as much as a blessing, it shouldn't cost as much as a full-price Catapult.



It's funny, I was thinking Bats would be on 25mm bases! But I do like the idea of a -1 penalty if not near another Bat, that's cool.



Really, it's meant to cover anything from the Terror Birds and Giant Apes to Great Beast of Gorgoroth type-things, hence why the base profile is weak but being able to take up to 3 options (including a massive stat boost and the Monster type) means you can make anything from cheap and cheerful throwaway models to wrecking balls that can smash apart a battle line. It's a bit of a compromise/abstraction, but I think it works.


Ah, that's because in my head, the Gundabad Orc profile was meant to represent the ones that arrive with Bolg, the second army, that aren't there at the start of the battle. But this can easily be changed.


Thanks again, all this is helpful!

_________________
Free fan-made BotFA Supplement

thought I'd just make a few suggestions, I would first like to thank you and everyone involved as this is just an amazing supplement. anyway i like the fact Dain's hammer essentially has burly as it means floi can't negate it and i also think the kingsguard should have strength 4 like the durins folk elite as it just feels right it would also be nice to have some background text for each unit also clarification if the champions of erebor can lead iron hills troops or not. Hope you find this useful.

_________________
RIP Christopher Lee

Thanks, glad you like it!

S4 Kingsguard could happen, I'll think about that. As for flavour text for each unit, it is something that is doable; it would take some time as I'd have to reformat each page and shuffle everything around a bit. I do quite like the idea, though, so it's something that may happen when I get around to the 'definitive' version of this Supplement.

And yes, Champions of Erebor can lead Warbands, they are included as Heroes and part of the army list in every sense. I'll add a note on this, and the same for Azog and Bolg.

_________________
Free fan-made BotFA Supplement

Right, over the next week or so I'll be endeavouring to put together a 'final' version of this supplement, so this is a last call for feedback. If anyone has anything they'd like to see added, changed or made clearer, now is the time to ask!

_________________
Free fan-made BotFA Supplement

Well if im not too late maybe give the war boar a might will and fate and a rule like deadly unison.

_________________
RIP Christopher Lee

Hmm, it would need to be rather more expensive for something like that (and Dain is already pretty costly), and while the rule fits for Azog+The White Warg, where both are pretty sentient and aware, I'm not sure the Boar is anything more than a Mount to Dain. Not to shoot your suggestion down or anything, but I'm not sure it would really fit in quite the same way. Thanks for the thought, though.

I must admit I have been lax in updating this, hopefully I can get myself in gear and produce something finished within a week or so.

_________________
Free fan-made BotFA Supplement

Off topic-sih why does everyone call it the Bofur Troll? I didn't think Bofur interacted with it in the movie?

_________________

Because in the chronicles book, Bofur was supposed to take control of it for a scene.

_________________
12th GBHL 2013.
13th GBHL 2014
9th GBHL 2015


Mid Sussex Wargamers

Hi,

first of all, thank you for this supplement, it is very nice.

I hope that I am not too late. I know that they don't perfectly fit in middle earth, however, I would like to see some rules for the worms.

_________________
Trade: http://tinyurl.com/oxwul9a

Just found this topic. Nice ideas, but the dwarfes are not really balanced in my opinion.
My thoughts:

iron hills warriors:
12 points is a lot, but a think they are a bit op if you use them with Dain and spam them with the champion and cheap erebor reclaimed heros. They have 5 dice to win the combat and still 2 to wound.

Ramriders:
with Lance and shield they are only 3 points more expansive than Knights of Minas Thirit, but have +(special rule) +1S +1D +1F +1C -1" M

Iron Hills Champion:
Sorry, 45 points for a F6 3A hero with +1 to wound?!

This was something that came up in early musing on the project, and could easily be added in. We had a few ideas, mostly around allowing a Warband to 'buy' them as an upgrade which would allow them to deploy within 3" of any piece of terrain, but we found it hard to put a cost on something like that. If you have any ideas on that or any other rule for them then I'm all ears!

_________________
Free fan-made BotFA Supplement