Hm, I think Merry could kill an Uruk - the problem with representing these things in the game is that if he can kill one Uruk then he can kill 50 - not what Tolkien intended.

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Thror Clawhammer
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lol nothing to concede telcontar its just that the gw rules make hobbits so ineffective for use by an average gamer. the little guys do kick butt so an additional 1 maybe will make them a bit more competitive and and not so much the easy beats as gamers look at the stats and move on to elves or uruks(how are the uruks in the films... there are bodies evrywhere and this done by one guy a dwarf and an elf with no armour at amon hen) and look at the stats for uruks! just adding my two cents to the discussion.

Well, there are drawbacks to a hobbit army for sure, but you have a wealth of really nice heroes at your disposal like Gandalf, Gildor, the Dunedain and all those lovely hobbit heroes. As far as worrying about the 50 model limit that is extremely easy to work around and still field a competitive force. Here is an example of one that would do quite well I feel.

Gandalf the Grey - 170pts
Gildor - 80pts
3 x Wood Elf Warrior (bow and elf blade) - 30pts
2 x Dunedain of the North - 48pts
33 x Hobbit Shirriffs - 132pts
10 x Hobbit Archers - 40pts

50 models - 500pts

Hobbit armies really aren't that bad off.

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Yeah Hobbit armys arent all that bad , you can get many models for like only a few points

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Stefan

I like hobbit armies and have been meaning to start one they may be weak fighters but there shooting is real good.

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When gothmog aka Gothmog rulz gives the thumbs up for Hobbits I feel oddly comforted! lol I don't think the real Gothmog would be that understanding.

OK, I'm guessing that Thrór is on holiday or something. I'd like to continue with this thread, but will wait a bit to see if Thrór is going to rush to the rescue.

Cheers

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Curunír
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Sorry, was on camp for a week.

And I am stuck for topics.

Lets see, before my grasp on reality slips away entirely... Well that was random!
Rangers of the North
Are these expensive warriors really worth their high cost? Do their limited heroic characteristics come in useful, or are they just nice-looking models (Or are they not even that!?)

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Thror Clawhammer
Is it sad that I spent hours trying to think of a signature?

I'm guessing that this includes the Dúnedain as well. They are a topic of current interest to me

"expensive", "limited" and "just nice-looking"? Starting a bit negative, aren't we.

They are as expensive as their characterisctics warrant and are on par with other "minor" Heroes (compare with Beregond or Damrod) and I feel that they add a certain level of complexity and subtleness to the game. As the LOTR SBG continues to expand, these types of Heroes will allow the game to expand and hopefully keep it from stagnating into a two level game of "Mighty Heroes" and Catapult Fodder"

Their "limited" abilities is a matter (in my opinion) of "how" they are used. I do not believe that they are as useful in a toe to toe fight with a more powerful enemy, but used as a "Lieutenant" to help hold rank and file troops together they are very valuable. And the potential for "being in the right place at the right time" using that 1 Might point for a well timed Heroic action has been useful to me in the past. The 1 Will and Fate point means that they at least have a chance (granted slim) of staying just that much longer in the battle.

No comment on the "just nice looking" part , unless of course you would like to check out my Dúnedain WIP thread.

One question that I would like to explore in this topic is how they might best be used as the "core" of a force, or if they should be used at all! (cf. 33% archer rule) thread. I look forward to some other opinions about this idea.

That's all for now, back to work...

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Curunír
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I find the Rangers of the North an excellent addition to an army! As Curunir said, as Lieutenants they come into their own! Given they are expensive and have limited heroic values, but simply to have Kinsmen of Aragorn's upon the batlefield I feel adds interest to the battle!

A well painted model can be most pleasing to see in action on the battlefield (especially with painters like Curunir around ) Tall as Lords and grim of face, to look upon a weather worn Ranger is to look upon one who has seen battle, death and War!!

They have excellent wargear, look well (in my opinion anyway) and to be honest are one of the MANY reasons I have such an intertest in LOTR and STB. But as with ANY heroic model, if they're not used to their full potential, it is not the fault of the model, but of the gamer!

Any battles I lost, I knew why I lost the battle, whether it was due to not getting priority when it was needed most, missing an opportunity for a heroic action, bad strategy or simply the dice didn't roll the numbers needed in times of desperation.

But if your strategy is smart enough that it uses your Rangers effectively and sparingly, then I believe an army with rangers or Dunedain wthin it, would be one that would find victory upon any battlefield!!

Russell Chieftain

I see the rangers/dunedain as a source for pretty cheap Might. Especially in some "battle scenarios" the amount of Might and the heroic actions it allows are crucial. I saw once the armies of Vesa Nenye (three-time GT winner) and they had as much as 8-9 points of Might.

Theoretically you could have 20 points of Might in a dunedain-only 500 points army. The model count would be only 20 so you would probably be heavily outnumbered. Using half of the points on some cheaper troops would allow a more balanced army.

I have a box of dunedain and when I get around painting them I'll see how they work in action.

By the way, what named heroes would you use with them? Aragorn and Halbarad of course, but would Gildor fit better with dunedain or with Rivendell elves?

-- Pasi

While an entire Army of RotN/Dúnedain would be interesting (say as RotN in the Grey Company), my idea is to use them as the core in addition to other Heroes and troops (most likely elves from Rivendell) as a "Companions to the Dúnedain Chieftain" or "Champions/Defenders of the North" theme.
Aragorn (Strider) as Chieftain of the Dúnedain for certain, and Halbarad (I'm converting a Dúnedain version) is also a good choice. I am thinking Elladan and Elrohir as well. There are plenty of references of the Twin Sons going on raids with Aragorn and the Dúnedain. Gildor is an interesting option; commited to the defense of the North he would be an interesting companion to this force with his magical abilities.

An interesting dilema arises with the mixing of Dúnedain and Elves... to which one do you give the bows? Dúnedain have the bows included in the wargear, shoot as well as elves (+3) and have points for modifying rolls as well as a higher defense. But they still only use a regular bow (Strength 2). Elves on the other hand, spend points on all of their gear, cost less, have the same shoot ability, but carry elven bows (Strength 3) and have a better Fight Value then the RotN.

Tough choice. I believe that the RotN/Dúnedain would stand a better chance in toe to toe combat, so it might be better to use them in that capacity. In a 600 pt. (Tournament size) Army it might be tough to take a large enough force (30+ models) to get enough bows for Volley Fire, but then again I think the strength in such a Might packed Army would be to get them into combat as quick as possible (including moving the bows into effective range quickly) to take advantage of all of that Might.

Other thoughts?

Exactly, well put RC. Stats is stats in my opinion, it's how you use the stats that makes all the difference. There was an interesting article in WD 310 on using M/W/F and this was the sub-theme to the article; recommended reading to anyone who is uncertain about how to effectively use those Heroic abilities.

Thanks for sharing, back to work...

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Curunír
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@Curunir: with regards to your question as to who to make your archers... I would personally arm a few Dunedain/RotN with bows, even though their bows are not as strong, you never know... the long shot that hits is always the most rewarding!!

But its always nice to have Elves as tour core archer force, but keep them protected with the MIGHTY Dunedain Rangers!

Russell Chieftain

Everyone note I've changed the title to "Continuous Tactical Discussions" rather than weekly, because I much prefer to give the discussion enough lease on life to generate some useful and interesting comments.

That said, I think it's time for a new topic, so here I go: Volley Fire.

Is volley fire a rule that you use very often? Do you take advantage of the ability to cover longer distances, or do you find that the restrictions it imposes on actually hitting the target make it useless?

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Thror Clawhammer
Is it sad that I spent hours trying to think of a signature?

ok so acurate archers need to know when to volley and when to avoid it.
I personnaly volley only when I need to Hobbits, orcs and goblins are all candidates for volleying due to either their short range or poor shoot. but thats not to say that they should drop the volley and fire normally when the opportunity arises.
just my two cents.
Gazza

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My experiences of Volley Firing against Thror's Uruk-Hai have left me with a profound wariness of it. I generally only use it for shooting warriors outside my normal range, because of the fact that with Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits, it severely decreases their chances to hit, which is their greatest asset against Evil archers.

However, for the forces of Evil, I would consider it one of the gifts of Morgoth. Given that 99% of Evil bowmen have Shoot Value 5 anyway, double range and 1 more on the dice is a huge asset. I will say no more.

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"You draw far too much attention to yourself, Mr. Baggins!"

My experiences of volley fire are bad ones... in a tournament I entered once, I was on the side of evil and the good player took total advantage of volley fire, he cowered in a corner, using the nothing but Volley Fire again and again and again, making most of the game volley fire and very little hand-to-hand combat!! He avoided combat until it was unavoidable, I found this use of volley fire, both cowardly and against the general ideals of the game!

I like volley fire in scanarios such as Helms Deep etc, but having it as your main tactic I found spoiled the fun of the game! It merely increased my bloodthirst and annoyed a host of goblins who sought revenge on the elven Force!

Maybe its just me...

Russell Chieftain

I find that Volley Fire is useful for the opening turns of the game, in particular when I am using forces which have weaker bows and shorter range (such as Orcs, Goblins or Uruk-hai). With the new rules (10 or more bows) this will make it harder for more powerful archers (Elves!) to maintain Volley Fire or to achieve the requirements for Volley Fire in the first place, whereas the low points models (again Orcs, Humans and Goblins) will have an easier time in acheiving the numbers needed.

In addition to having some real potential to thin your enemy, the psychological effect can be devestating. I have had opponents abandon their strategies in a vain attempt to take cover from the Volley Fire, allowing me to advance and take better tactical positions. On other occasions it has provoked them into taking risk. I have had some success with taking down Heroes or reducing enemy bowmen with Volley Fire (and actually killing a Troll on one occasion), and will most likely continue to employ it during my opening turns. Once in range for direct fire, I would think it foolish to miss opportunities for direct bow fire in favour of Volley Fire, the exception being if my opponent had a large store of bowmen and was continueing to engage me with Volley Fire. In that case I would make great effort to close the gap with his troops to engage them in battle and (in the case of a Good opponent) eliminate his ability to use Volley Fire.

As with any gaming decision, the dice are either with you or not.

Russell Chieftens comment is one of the more common comments that I have heard against Volley Fire, and to a degree I can sympathize. However, Volley Fire has proven to be both historically acurate and important (Battle of Agincourt being the most extreme example) and it does force the opposing player to make some quick and difficult tactical decisions. Giving some thought to your deployment and/or plan of approach might give you better options on how to eliminate the threat from Volley Fire. The only opportunity I have had to test this was against a Good opponent (Gondor) who set up his archers in an obvious rear position in order to engage me with Volley Fire. My options were (in my opinion) limited to:
A. Close and engage his main body in force and hope that my attrition rate was not too high.
B. Detach a small and fast unit to detract him and engage the Archers from behind the main line.
Because the terrain was dense, a direct approach was difficult so I decided on B and placed a small group (six) of Warg Riders opposite his Archers.
The end result was better than I had hoped. He realized after one turn (in which he concentrated his Volley Fire on my main force in an attempt to damage my Hero- I lost one wound and one troop) that the Wargs would be on top of him in three turns, the next turn he turned the Volley Fire on the Wargs, and by turn three they were in range of direct fire. I was lucky and only lost two of the Wargs in the approach so I was able to flank him on the left and keep the Archers busy through out the next three turns. The end result was that I was able to approach with my main force unchallenged by bow fire and reposition my archers into a better tactical position. By the time the Wargs were dispatched (and yes they did take a few with them) my Archers were able to turn on the remaining archers with 2 to 1 superiority. I ended up losing the game due to poor dice rolling towards the end, but I had accomplished my goal against the Volley Fire.

I'm interested in hearing more comments on possible tactics to counter Volley Fire.

Back to work...

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Curunír
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I never use Volley Fire. This is probably because of two things: my main two gaming armies are Elves and Uruk-hai. Elves are two expensive to volley with, and I only ever use Uruks with Crossbows, which don't have the option.

As to counter tactics, I don't really worry about it. They need a 6 to hit, and then a 6 to wound. That means that you need 36 Volley Firing archers to (statistically) guarantee a wound on an Uruk-Hai Warrior with Shield. If they get really lucky, there isn't anything you can do about that anyway. If they don't, then you don't have a problem. And if you're in base contact with cover, then they need 72 archers... Ouch.

But, if I really want to stop them, which I never do, I'd probably want to glue myself to cover, darting from place to place in BASE CONTACT (this is the only way to get an in-the-way against Volley Fire) until I can get a charge off and break up their formation. The thing is to be clever when you charge so that the fights you win take full advantage of the 1" force-back to break up the Volley formation.

On that, taking your time when co-ordinating a charge from several warriors is always a worthwhile activity. Charge right, especially in some scenarios, and it may just win you the game.

Thror.

PS: w00t! 500 posts!

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Thror Clawhammer
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Volley fire is a great way to frustrate your enemy and cause him to over react, especially if yu get lucky and kill a couple in the first turn.

One I love is when facing ouruks with crossbow, you generally both start 24" away from each other in pitched battle, Good step back and will get either a volley in if they moved second or even better a free shot in at normal range if priority was won and the enemy moved his crossbows, this is especially leathal with elves.

I also find that Goblin players like to mass volley, in this case you just move your archers into normal range and trade of a 4+ to hit V 6, their loss but for some unthafomable reason they do always volley.

The thing with volley fire is to use it as another tactic to your advantage, but don't do it just because you can.