Can anyone please link me to some proof that orc and goblins are the same thing. I've been having an argument with my friend all day.

Let us think of it scientifically ...

Uruks, goblins and orcs are all part of the orc family
however
Uruks are a stronger variation, Goblins are a weaker variety so if you look at it in a binomial Latinised way it would go kinda like this:
Perfidus would be the genus eldaris the species, the genus and species would form the orc aggregate with all the various forms, variations and cultivated variations (bred)

Perfidus eldaris var. trogloditica (goblins)
Perfidus eldaris var. gundabadensis
Perfidus eldaris cv. morranonii
Perfidus eldaris cv. major (uruk hai)

and you could look at middle earth critters like this

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In the preface to the hobbit Tolkien writes

This ambiguity/interchangeability is also apparent when tolkien at one point describes Uruk-Hai as

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Elrond Nine Sixteenths elven does not exactly roll off the tongue.

I would agree with Grundgehog.
The next question that comes to mind is: can they crossbreed?
Because if they can, biologically they are thesame species.
But wait, elves and men could reproduce, so biologically they are thesame species too

No, I agree with Thurin. The letter at the beginning of the Sil confirms it to me.

The biological species concept clearly doesn't apply to dwarves, humans, or elves (and therefore, by extension, orcs) in Middle-Earth. They all have supernatural origins.

I don't have any hard evidence, but it does seem in general that Tolkien uses the terms "orc" and "goblin" almost interchangeably, whereas "uruk" (which technically just means "orc") is used to describe the larger soldier breed of orc, and "Uruk-hai" refers to Saruman's enhanced breed of uruks.

There also seems to be considerable variation in orcs' physical attributes, ranging from rather small, crook-legged, and hunched over to standing upright, with the same stature as a man. I think it's best to think of orcs and goblins as fairly fluid categories, describing a range of creatures under a similar umbrella.

If I recall correctly, "goblin" is also more frequently used in The Hobbit, whereas "orc" is the more common term in The Lord of the Rings.

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Well, that's my 2 cents.

While Tolkien basically described them as the same thing I do believe having the different terms is useful. I believe there were 7 varieties of Orc/Goblin in Middle Earth. Jackson has found his own way to differentiate between them all which I like. So using the modern interpretation which is relevant to the SBG I would go with this even though it is quite simple.

1.Uruk-Hai-These being the strongest bred by Saruman.
2.Gundabad Orcs
3.Mordor Orcs
4.Morannon Orcs
5.Moria Goblins
6.Goblins of the Misty Mountains
The Seventh is harder and I would be tempted to go for 7.Mordor Uruk-Hai. This is just the way I like to look at it. Obviously within each race there can be different types in terms of size and strength. I like to think the term Goblin is only used for the smaller ones in Moria and the Misty Mountains as I have never heard of the stronger breeds being referred to as simply 'Goblins'. 'Orcs' seems to be the term more commonly used for the more upright and stronger breeds. Also the Goblins seem to dwell deep underground. Love this topic.

Tolkien actually describes 'breeds' of orc so for me, Goblin and orc, whilst interchangable, also means there is some room for manoeuvre when considering orcs. Uruk-Hai are a seperate breed from the rest as Tolkien explicitly states that they were first seen in Gondor in 2475 TA and 'orc-men' and Uruk-Hai are differentiated by Tolkien in the UT in the battle of the fords of isen. Therefore they are all the same in theory but have different traits. Uruk-Hai are straight legged whereas Mordor Orcs are bow legged and Moria orcs can see better in the dark

We know for a fact that elves and men can breed due to hybrids the house of earendil for starts whereas there is no evidence ever of
Elf x dwarf or even Man x dwarf hybrids ever. Also you forget that elves (eldar) and men(edain) are of similar lineage being the children of illuvatar unlike the dwarves(nogrim) who are in fact created by Aule therefore of a different class.
As it stands my comment earlier still rings true magic or not as things change/adapt to their environment the same true for orcs that is the principle of speciation

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Page 16 of the Shadow and Flame sourcebook reads as follows:

"In truth, Goblins are not a distinct race but a lesser species of Orcs who made their way to live in the dark caverns below the mountains...."

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T'was in the darkest depths of Mordor, I met a girl so fair..
But Gollum, and the evil one crept up and slipped away with her..

that sentence is an oxymoron, race is lower than species in ranking as race is effectively breed/variation but still within the same species they would still however be in the same genus regardless of being separate species altogether

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I'm not contesting whether or not elves and men can interbreed, and I didn't forget that men and elves were both created by Illuvatar, nor that dwarves were created by Aule. The reason I said that the biological species concept doesn't apply to elves, dwarves, men, and orcs is that, as far as I can tell, speciation doesn't occur in Middle-Earth.

The function of the species concept is to determine to what degree you can claim that too groups of organisms have sufficiently diverged that you can call them separate species (usually defined by reproductive isolation). Since no two groups of organisms in Middle-Earth have diverged to the point of reproductive isolation (they either could or couldn't interbreed from the beginning, and there's been no change in that status), the species concept, as modern biologists understand it, isn't really useful.

Microevolution (variation w/in a spp due to selective breeding) clearly exists in Middle-Earth, but macroevolution (speciation) does not.

FWIW, we don't know whether a dwarf-elf or dwarf-human hybrid is possible, because while it's true that we don't get any accounts to attest to them, we also never hear of any romances between said peoples. We can't determine whether hybridization is an impossibility, or if there's just such a strong cultural taboo against it that it's never happened. Unless the Professor actually stated this somewhere, which I'm not aware of. My gut tells me that, due to being created by a different being, dwarves aren't reproductively compatible with men or elves, but without Tolkien's definitive statement one way or the other, we just can't say.

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Well, that's my 2 cents.

Oh I completely agree with everything you have said. I think what everyone on this page can agree with then is that orcs and goblins come from the same race/species, but there are a number of different breeds within the race itself. The terms 'orc' and 'goblin' and 'uruk' are simply useful to differentiate. The same can be applied to most animals.

Dont forget Snaga or slaves as well! I always think of Orc culture like a demented meritocracy whereby the most vicious and ruthless lead...or have I played shadow of mordor too much.....

Oh I completely agree with everything you have said. I think what everyone on this page can agree with then is that orcs and goblins come from the same race/species, but there are a number of different breeds within the race itself. The terms 'orc' and 'goblin' and 'uruk' are simply useful to differentiate. The same can be applied to most animals.[/quote]

Dont forget Snaga or slaves as well! I always think of Orc culture like a demented meritocracy whereby the most vicious and ruthless lead...or have I played shadow of mordor too much.....[/quote]

I think Snaga is just an offensive term used by the orcs rather than a particular breed. Shadow of Mordor aside, I would agree about the culture regardless. I enjoyed playing that game but there was just something lacking that made it feel like it wasn't Middle Earth or even Mordor for me. I felt many of the orc designs(not all) were kind of too warcrafty as well. Still fun though. Still wish there could be an awesome Middle Earth RPG based on the films, never going to happen but I can dream. That is another topic though ha

*COUGH* Tauriel x Kili *COUGH*

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Haha, yes, well, that doesn't count as canon, as far as I'm concerned, but they also never consummated the darn thing, as far as we know, so even if we do take them into account, we still don't know if it's an impossibility, or has simply never happened.

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Well, that's my 2 cents.

Oh dear, I just imagined having to sit through a nine-hour film trilogy on the troubles of Tauriel the single-mum, who does everything in her power to get her mongrel child accepted by the Mirkwood community. Don't go there, that way madness lies...

(The latter is true regarding any human x orc crossbreeding as well. Ugh.)

Haha now we know why Thranduil exiled her, she is simply depraved! Wouldn't want the other elves in mirkwood getting funny ideas like that.
Disgusting stuff!

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To go by the book, goblin is just what the Hobbits call orcs. The only two different and completely distinct 'breeds' of orcs are Uruk-Hai and Orc. All are technically Uruks, but the Uruk-Hai are the superior 'breed'. There are mentions of different types in terms of what they can do, like the tracker in RotK, but that would still be an orc. And contrary to the movies, Saruman did not create the Uruk-hai, he actually stole that idea from Sauron.

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