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 Post subject: Re: The remain portion of the army of the dead left to deal
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:30 pm 
Elven Elder
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They're Wraiths, held together and given physical presence by their rings as opposed to the AOTD who are cursed spirits only.

Just to explain the difference lol

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 Post subject: Re: The remain portion of the army of the dead left to deal
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:36 am 
Elven Warrior
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I do like the idea of a Captain of the dead, just to allow you to field a couple of warbands of them without having to resort to other 'living' heroes to lead then.

Not keen on the idea of a dead archer... to me the dead kill through fear when they are up close in your face,...being shot at by them from a distance isnt scary enuf to kill - just my opinion...

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 Post subject: Re: The remain portion of the army of the dead left to deal
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:29 am 
Wayfarer
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pokyha wrote:
You also have to realize that in a lot of battles you will get 2-4 turns of shooting before the battle lines clash and being a good model they cannot shoot into combat. How many wounds will you be able to get with a spectral bow on a troll before this happens? (someone can do the maths if they like)

The bows will also suffer if your opponent brings no monsters or beasties and if they play as Harad or isengard or worse elves.


Well, you'd be scoring wounds about 1/6th of the time against a Mordor Troll, where a Warrior of Minas Tirith would be wounding what, 1/144 or something?

At 1/3rd the points cost... I don't really see the issue here.

Against Harad you're about breaking even; it's only against Elves where there's a big difference. And considering Courage tops out at 9 (assuming Erkenbrand's War Horn, which considering the absence of any C7 heroes in KoM let alone Rohan is a total edge case) you're better off in those edge cases too, thanks to always being capable of wounding Sauron and similar.

Ultimately the only actual problem you'll run into is the fact that you can't shoot into combat.
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 Post subject: Re: The remain portion of the army of the dead left to deal
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:51 pm 
Elven Warrior
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On another topic, I was watching ROTK the other day, and when the Three Hunters were entering Dunharrow, there was a picture of what I would assume to be a warrior if Erech on a chariot, with a throwing spear.

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 Post subject: Re: The remain portion of the army of the dead left to deal
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:34 pm 
Craftsman
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Have used the army of the dead a few times this year, this is what I've picked up on.

The army is tiny as the warriors are so expensive. The basic warrior is great with both terror and high defence to keep them in the game.
Blades of the dead is ok but not overpowered. You get a boost against dwarves, goblins, orcs and uruks but anything in light armour makes no difference and wood elves are rolling on the floor giggling at your ghosts. On the plus side nothing in the game needs worse than a 6 for blades of the dead to wound (excluding courage buff effects like horn blowers) so it does have some benefits.

The key I've found to making the army of the dead working is with grey company allies. Rangers with spears add F4 and boost the numbers, the rangers of the north add some much needed might points.

Now we come to the hardest bit, choosing your leaders...
The king of the dead, is pretty terrible. I have used him twice in tournaments and he never quite seems to pull his weight very well. His ability sounds epic and could potentially kill a mumak in one hit but it's only ever instant killed one hero for me.
His big issues are: No might, one attack.
On the plus side, he has 6 will so is great for resisting mass effect spells like chill soul or nature's wrath. His courage is so high you'll almost never need to roll for your warriors and with 2 wounds at defence 8 and 3 fate he can sometimes take some punishment before he drops.
To lead this army I like Aragorn as his might goes a long way to keeping your warriors where they need to be (plus its themed :) ) and his combat ability helps keep the kill count up.
To lead the troops Angbor and Forlong are your favourites, nice and cheap with lots of might which the dead need. Halbarad looks good on paper for the rangers (though I have yet to try this myself).

I really like the army, it can sometimes struggle but its usually quite fun to use.

Onto the suggested changes...

Archers of the dead: seriously allied grey company is worse. You can take more shots with might while also increasing the model count and adding fight 4. The rangers have lower chances to wound but hit better, have more shots and then play a role in combat. Warriors with arrows of the dead would not be worse than this.
Warriors of the dead need to be high defence, dropping to 7 with a bow doesn't play to the warrior's strengths and makes for one hellishly expensive archer, of which there will not be many.
Very cool idea though! I don't remotely think they'd break the game and be OP, especially not at the suggested 24pts a shot. 17pts tops per archer, realistically 16 in my opinion (Also perhaps a special composition rule to state only warriors and riders of the dead count towards your bow limit. No adding cheap fiefdom troops just to get archers of the dead)

Captain of the dead, great idea. Would love to see them used in game.
Nice and simple plus one to everything a warrior gets except for defence. I can understand the logic of, the king has no might so why should captains but the army really has no other source of might without Aragorn or Dunedain.
Either give them might or make them cheaper and give them a wilt soul rule: each time they wound once they inflict two wounds/or extra will and fate maybe. I actually quite like the 1/4/2 profile but only if you then buff the king of the dead as a captain is so much better for the pts.

Now...the biggest change I'd make if I had the power.
King of the dead, option to take an armoured steed (in fact I would make all of the riders of the dead on armoured steeds). I would be open to keeping his attacks at 1 but would give him 1-2 Might points and make all warriors/riders of the dead count him as a banner. This may adjust his pts a bit but as he stands he is not worth the 100. (9 times out of 10 his impact on the game will be the same as that of a single warrior of the dead)

On the riders of the dead, definately need to be on armoured horses (makes sense as the mounts are dead too) the ignoring terrain also makes sense and would perhaps make them some of the best if most expensive cavalry in the game.


The proof though is always in the playtesting, may try and have a go at testing this myself. If I get the chance I'll report back on how it goes.
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 Post subject: Re: The remain portion of the army of the dead left to deal
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:06 am 
Loremaster
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Made some changes on the initial page.

Redone a bit the King of the dead profile, hes more expensive but slightly more competitive.
Redone some rules to spectral steeds
Added the Option for the warriors of the Dead to carry a banner

Will consider:
King of the dead on armoured steed (just cause we haven´t seen none)
King of the dead similar effect to Imrahil in banner to knights


I might for now just keep the archers of the dead at same cost, they mostly in the role of elite kind of thing like durins folk, wood elves and such got those elite nasty units at 20pts + (vault wardens, sentinels so on) so this would be the dead elite jewel unit sort of saying..
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