Saw the film last night and have to say, I was more than impressed. In some ways, I still stand by many of the points I raised in my comment in this topic, but I definitely enjoyed the film more than DOS, and possibly more than AUJ.

[My opinions contain SPOILERS!!]

For me, the film's ending was perfect, with the transition to LOTR being a wise decision on PJ's behalf and a fitting tribute to the first trilogy. The Dol Guldur scenes were impressive beyond measure and in my opinion the best sequences of the film. My only concern was I would have liked to see Saruman's conversation with Sauron, and maybe the dark lord could have handed the wizard his Palantir so as to watch the goings on in Mordor that inevitably leads to Saruman's downfall in the LOTR trilogy. But aside from that, I enjoyed all the White Council sequences.

The opening scene with Smaug was great, if a little shorter than anticipated. I would have enjoyed more time with Smaug, or none at all. As expected, it suffers the same problem with killing off Boromir in the opening TTT, it doesn't work on screen and the same goes for Smaug. He should have died in DOS or lasted longer in TBOFA. The Lake Town scenes were great though, especially those involving The Master and Alfrid. Alfrid could have died here though, as his involvement in the rest of the film provided little more than off-key comic relief, which although funny, wasn't necessary.

Here on, we had two hours of battle. Going into the cinema I was apprehensive to say the least, but this proved to be one of the greatest battles I've seen on-screen. There were some well-thought ideas such as the signal tower, catapult-trolls and the isolation of the Azog and Bolg confrontations to a separate location. I also loved the portrayal of the characters that appeared in this sequence (the Company, Dain, Thranduil, Bard, Gandalf and Bilbo), who each fought in a very unique way, as did their allied armies, which added to the realisation of this being a battle of five very different armies. The design-work on all five armies was also impressive, although I felt the bats were just thrown in to fulfil the title of the battle, they didn't really pose any threat at all on-screen, and neither did the eagles who swooped in with about 30 seconds to go.

The only parts of the film that were disappointing were the roles of Legolas and Tauriel, which genuinely added nothing at all other than an extra 40-or-so minutes to the running time. Tauriel's story having no end, her final scene was just her crying over Kili - the lack of this closure genuinely made her character pointless for me. Beorn being reduced to little more than a screen-grab, as I predicted. The auctioning of Bilbo's possessions when he returns to Bag End was a distraction to an otherwise wonderful ending in my opinion. It didn't ruin the end of the film by any means, but was just annoying and unnecessary.

Other than this though, I was really happy with the final film. I'd give it a score of about 8.5/10. It definitely improved the quality of the whole trilogy for me, and provided a good end to this tale before leading towards the epic adventures of the LOTR trilogy.

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Wise Old Elf

OK folks - now in SPOILER MODE -

I'm sad to think the BotFA really didn't work for some. As in my non-spoiler post I must admit I did enjoy the film as I have all the other Middle Earth visions Pete Jackson has conjured up. The main thing to remember is that he's got to make something that gets bums on seats and I'm sure that means some unusual decisions in terms of film framework, pacing, female leads, length and other factors as mentioned by others. The immersion with an IMAX screen and sound help in this regard and the 3D probably added to this as it wasn't overblown like the 1st Hobbit movie.

Yes there are some bizarre bits and pieces by hey, it's fantasy, and if I'm watching or reading fantasy I think I suspend my usual scientific and analytical mind and accept it as pure escapism. I did lean across to my wife when the worms popped out with a Dune reference, but besides that one I was in the moment.

If you think about it the world of Tolkien as written, it has walking and malevolent trees (Old Man Millow), armies of dead people who can destroy the living even though incorporeal, ring wraiths, barrow-wights and not forgetting Tom Bombadil who seems impervious to the rules followed by everybody else in Middle Earth and lives to his own unique set of rules. O yes, magic exists as well. Add in scores of unique creatures and humanoids and you can see why most people thought the films we have seen could never have been made.

Smaug was always going to be a bit-player in this one but I enjoyed the scenes with him in. He seemed very believable in flight to me so hats off to the animation guys. It was nice to see Christopher Lee being a good guy, and getting in on the action, as well as Galadriel unleashed. I wonder if this bit is ripe for extended stuff ? I hope so.

I did like Richard Armitage and his whole journey into madness. I liked the interplay between the other dwarves and Thorin as they see their King slipping away from them. The bit when he finally comes to his senses and the others realise they have their leader back is a great bit of cinema.

Martin Freeman has grown into the role over the three films, quite fitting really as it matches the growth of Bilbo himself. I suppose being in a role for quite a while gives you a chance to get under a characters skin. At the end of the day, the whole story is about a hobbit and how he has an adventure. I think Pete Jackson told his story quite well.

Lee Pace again didn't disappoint for me and Luke Evans did a great job to present Bard as a true hero who, in typical real hero style, seems quite unaware that he isn't just a bloke trying to protect his family and people. Yes, OK, Legolas was his usual acrobatic self, but it didn't jar for me, no more than say some of the nonsense in supposed more 'real life' action films. as noted earlier, Fantasy = fantastic = anything can happen.

In conclusion, it would have been nice to have seen hours and hours of extra material, expanded stories and references to all sorts of stuff but in the end, for good or ill, the whole story arc of Hobbit and LOTR is probably the best visualisation of Middle Earth we are ever going to get. When you consider Alan Lee and John Howe were heavily involved in the design of all all the movies I think that is a fair comment as they have spent their lifetimes illustrating it. Howard Shores music will always take me off into this world whenever I hear it. Again, it probably will never be bettered.

Peter Jackson - I salute you, thanks for all the memories and making me hang out in a place like this.

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Azog

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Went to the cinema on Friday, for me BOFA was a good film, but still not what I expected.
The first part was great, Smaug was really brutal and releasing his furry on the people of lake town. For me this was 'killing' that I haven't even saw in the whole LOTR trilogy, so I thought great start! Then he got killed by Bard as expected.
But I really hated the part that the random guy was saying 'Bard saved us'' and then took his hand in the air. From here on Bard was the hero and leader from lake town.

The white council was also great to see in action! Saruman was really badass and same goes for Galadriel. But then the part when Sauron got send to Morgoth was a bit like, oke... PJ could have done way better here, by making Sauron a bit more of a character and see him going back to his weak point again.

Furthermore there was to much action in to movie, which did not help the story. Like discussed above: the wurms where really like what the F, serious! Legolas playing Aladin was also again dissapointing and I really hoped they did not fall for this again, but they did....
Dain was really awsome a new character and really pulled of being the dwarf you all want to see. But then correct me if I am wrong, I really could see that he was CGI when he had his helm on?

Thandruil was even better then in the first two movies, great credits to Lee Pace! But PJ needed to go further with him, like in the end I really was curious what he was going to do when he went back to Mirkwood. Is he going to leave Middle-Earth or fight like the rest?

The end was traditional LOTR like and gave me that LOTR feeling. But like I said above I would rather see what other characters like Thandruil do rather then Bilbo.

8/10 ,because it is Middle-Earth;)

I honestly feel like I went to see a different movie to some of you. I had a jaw dropping moment when Galadriel went mental during the White Council scene, and I realised after the scene ended that my hand had been paused six inches in front of my mouth for a good two or three minutes holding a piece of popcorn. I was literally frozen in mid eating pose whilst that scene played out it was so awesome. I'm not ashamed to say I shed a tear as each dwarf died even though I knew it was coming, as did my wife, son and daughter. So to say it failed to capture an emotional investment from the audience doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe its because we saw it in 3D 48fps on the giant IMAX screen from the best seats in the theatre. Maybe its because when I go to see a film I like to completely immerse myself within it, no matter what it is. But I for one thoroughly enjoyed it, as did my family.

However, as mentioned, there were some loose ends that were not tied up, and I found myself explaining to the family on the way home who became King under the mountain, what happened to some of the other dwarves etc. Not really enough Beorn for me but I suspect he will get a bigger outing in the EE as he did in the previous film. It was me who ridiculed Legolas' gravity defying debris climb, but my son pointed out that Leggy was fleet of foot and could walk on snow four feet deep whilst barely leaving a footprint. That works for me. The giant earthworms were a bit unnecessary I thought why not just burrow underneath the armies of good whilst they take each other on and surface inside the mountain to clean up what is left. A minor quibble on what was an amazing theatrical experience for me.

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You don't have to be great to start. But you do have to start to be great.

I didn't hate it but I couldn't help but lament the film the BoFA could have been. There was a good film in there somewhere but it was just drowned in empty CGI 'wouldn't it be cool if...' moments.

The best bits of the films were when we were seeing actors interact with each other. If only that had made up the bulk of the film.
Instead I felt like I was watching a video game for large parts of the movie. Too many things happened with little or no context or consequence. Some things were given far too much screen time (Alfrid, Legolas) and others almost none at all (Beorn, Radagast.)

I feel like the films would have been better as two parts. Smaug dying in the opening of the film was utterly anti-climactic. It should have been at the end of a film not the start of one. And the way that Bard killed him was ridiculous, I would rather he would have just used the windlance. Or better yet, just use his damned bow! He doesn't need to peirce his hide as he's aiming for his weak spot. But the makeshift balista was just awful.

I've also come the conclusion that I really don't like Laketown at all. It's too much of a caricature. The buildings, the master, Alfrid, the costumes. It also feel odd to have a civilisation that seems to be in the 16th or 17th century, when the rest of the humans are in the 12th or 13th century. Especially when Laketown is supposed to be so backward.

I know it's a fantasy film, but what makes Middle-Earth so special is that it feels so real and believable.

I could go on and on about what I didn't like but I don't want to be too negative. There were moments of genuine warmth and I cared about the characters for the most part, the music was excellent and I was never bored.

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I wonder what happend to Azog's ladywarg. There is always the extended edition thought.

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- RIP Fimbul and Narzug -

I just saw all 3 films back to back and I must say that this is how the Hobbit should be watched. I thoroughly enjoyed my time at the theatre. I believe that as stand alone films, LOTR is better because the Hobbit doesn't have enough content (each individual film that is, they don't have a distinct climax like Helm's Deep did for TTT). BotFA by itself just feels like a big battle scene, but when you watch the previous 2, it feels like a satisfying ending. However, as a 3 film trilogy I would say that the Hobbit is equally as a good as LOTR. I will divide the film into what was "great," "bad," and "what was ok for the film but could have been better for fans that I hope is in the extended edition."

GREAT:
-Thorin's descent into madness, his slow journey into madness was wonderfully displaced, especially when his voice started to resemble Smaug. The reaction of the company (especially Balin and Gloin) made his downfall truly tragic.
-The final duels, this film had a definite climax with Bolg/Legolas and Azog/Throin. The death scenes were very well done. The other 2 films IMO don't have a defining climax, this satisfied that.
-The transformation from the Hobbit to LOTR at the end. It really tied the films together and felt like they were part of the same universe.
-The diversity of the armies. I don't understand why people have a problem with all the trolls. This army was simply more troll heavy than the one at Minas Tirith, they are different to the one in LOTR which makes them distinct, rather than blanketed into the same thing. I liked how each troll had a distinct function, and they even make use of their disabled trolls.

BAD
-Tauriel, I don't mind a new character in the film since the books are so male centred. But if one is going to introduce a new female character, don't just put her into a cheap love triangle. I cringed every time Kili/Tauriel had a moment, and I think that entire storyline could have been cut.

WHAT WAS OK BUT COULD HAVE IMPROVED FOR FANS AND WHAT I HOPE IS IN THE EXTENDED EDITION:
-What happened to Saruman, I wish we could have had a "transfer to evil" moment, since he never fulfilled his "leave Sauron to me" moment.
-What happened to Bard and Dain, would have been a bit more satisfying to see them crowned king.
-More Beorn, I think his battle scenes should have been massively expanded.
-What happened to Balin, again this is not necessary for normal theatre goers but I would have liked to see a shot of him descend into Moria.

Thranduil isa sindarin elf, his lineage means he is not one of the calaquendi, 'high elves' so therefore doesn't return to aman as the high elves do. Correct me if I am wrong, but the only sindarin to go is debatable Legolas, depending on whether he and gimli made it across the oceon in a little boat.

I think that the point of Tauriel is missed somewhat. She provides an interesting side story, but also the reason for Legolas to leave Mirkwood, as PJ obviously wanted him to be shown to have a tie with Aragorn, shown by Thranduil telling him to find striders true name, and the in fellowship he schools Boromir by telling him who Aragorn is.

I had many problems with the film myself. For instance, PJ does not provide any clear explanation as to why the trolls do not now turn into stone, which was the real reason for the bats in the book, as they creates a sort of permanent night for the orcs to march under.
I also felt that the elves dissapearing and the rams appearing somewhat ruined my sense of emersion.
But, I enjoyed the film. I don't know what people were expecting, but there isn't really any more to the book than that, and I think PJ managed to make it into a film very well. It was never going to be what we all wanted, because none of us completely share the vision of PJ, and the beautiful thing about books is everyone sees things differently, so PJs individual view combined with the changes needed to make a film is not going to be how everyone wanted it or envisioned it. This does not mean you can't enjoy it for what it is though, and I think it would have been difficult to make middle earth any more real than PJ has.

It is difficult for me to really decide whether I liked the film or not, but I have to admit that it would have been very difficult to make this movie as good as Return of the King given he had to work with a children's book that already made very little sense thematically. So given the source material, I'd say the film was probably as good as most any director could do it.

I'm with Ukfreddybear on this one. I am a jaded 50 year-old who has seen his fair share of movies and I had several 'open-mouthed OMG' moments, most notably Smaug trashing lake town (just about the right length, this segment for me) the 'Galadriel kicks ass' moment in Dol Guldur, the Dwarf shield wall, pretty much any time the Elf army appeared en-masse and pretty much the whole battle itself.

I felt that Richard Armitage was absolutely brilliant throughout. His portrayal of Thorin is a standout of all 6 Middle Earth movies for me. Actually, the characterisation was pretty strong in the movie. I cared about Thorin. I cared about Fili and Kili too and Bilbo's moments with Thorin at the end were moving. Armitage excelled here, I thought.

I have no issue with the Legolas and Tauriel thing. Ok, it wasn't 'necessary' but did set up Legloas' role in the LOTR films perfectly. The only bit I disliked was the worm things. It would have been nice to see more of Beorn and the eagles, but maybe that'll be in the EE. I think I may actually buy the EE of this rather than just the cinema version, which I have done with the other two...

This movie also finally gave us the chance to see Elf and Dwarf armies kicking Orc ass - don't get me wrong, the battle scenes in the LoTR trilogy are superb, but...c'mon...this was dwarves and Elves...ELVES....!!! Aside from being read The Hobbit in school when I was 10 ( a LONG time ago! ), The Silmarillion was my first foray into reading Tolkien as a teenager and I still get goosebumps when I read about Nirnaeth Arnoediad - this last movie finally game me something of a glimpse on screen of what that kind of battle might look like.

Finally, I really can't understand how some people can sit there during a movie like this and be analysing all the CGI - Dain CGI? Really? Ok...fine...maybe it's my dodgy old eyes... Didn't matter to me...all I saw was a dwarf lord smacking Orcs...just like it should be (well...aside from the pig...a bit too WFB that, but even so...) I was totally immersed from the first frame to the last. But anyway, each to his own.

If you didn't enjoy it, I feel genuinely sorry for you, as you'll likely never get another Tolkien movie in your lifetime. I pretty much certainly won't in mine...

Just like with GW, PJ takes a look of cr*p from a ton of people. He may not have done a perfect job, but IMHO he has done a darned fine one. Personally, I applaud what he has done. He has given me a lot of pleasure over the 6 movies. Thanks PJ...

Now...c'mon GW...let's have some PROPER Elf spear & shield models (not those odd Glaive things...yuck!) and those warriors of Dain (in PLASTIC!!) Pretty please...

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Thank you

Saw it last night, opening night in Canada.

I really didn't like it. It also makes me appreciate The Fellowship of the Ring and the Two Towers a whole lot more.

The one thing that really encapsulates a lot of my feelings about the film is the Dale set. It's a traditional set, hand built, to scale. It's a really-real space. The film made it look fake.

The film takes a whole pile of great actors, puts them in a country with spectacular scenery and then...makes everything look like its green screened. Everything.

Fellowship of the Ring was a very traditional film, compensating for things by working the camera angles, matte painting and focussing on characters and keeping the sweeping CGI worlds to a minimum. Famously, Jackson made everyone watch Braveheart and Gladiator; he wanted that sort of dirty, historical war movie sense, where everything "felt" heavy on the screen. It transformed a potentially very weak film that could have been a disaster, into something that looked and felt very human. Such a choice let the actors really shine.

There was a parallel: look how lost the really impressive cast of the Star Wars prequels amongst the green screens and special effects. The Fellowship and the Two Towers, in particular, really put a lot of the work of the film on the cast's shoulders, even inventing new elements to let the cast stand out more.

Here, we have an amazing cast, with some really wonderful emotional arcs...that sort of get lost amidst the CGI.

All in all, it felt wasted. The down ending - linking Bilbo's return to Bilbo's ambiguous state of mind at the beginning of the Fellowship was supposedly joyful, maybe bittersweet, but it just felt a bit cruel. Kind of glad the whole thing is over now.

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Dreaming of getting back to painting...any month now.

I personally enjoyed the film. After DoS I went into the movies with more of a reasonable expectation. Thinking back, if you take DoS, and BotFA and make them one whole movie it looks a little better, with BotFA being almost 90% climax. A couple "what the..? " moments with the worms, the mace legs troll, and the elves jumping in between a pointy shield wall and a massive charge of orcs, but i was able to look past it and still just enjoy the ride, i honestly didnt even care about tauriel at this point, i really enjoyed her character, i just didnt like what they made their "love" into.

a few things i would have changed -
- the misty mountains cold theme was my absolute favourite theme of this trilogy and it was not used enough. this was supposed to be the theme that transcends all films in the trilogy much like the "fellowship walking" theme in LOTR. and they almost never used it. I think it would have changed a lot of moods in many scenes, especially the charge of the company out of Erebor to help the Dain, that would have been the perfect time to use it.

- i really wished Fili would have had a more dignified death. I imagined the two brothers fighting the last to protect Thorin. I dont even think Kili's character would have allowed himself to get captured like that i feel like he would have faught them till he died.

- Much too much beheading. Honestly i dont think its that easy to take take someones head off their shoulders, and in almost every fight multiple heads are flying. Thranduil himself takes off something around 5 heads in one stroke atop his Elk. A little too much for me.

I could complain about CGI, i could complain about certain characters having too much/not enough screen, i could complain about the script, but i really think PJ did his best with these, and i think there were more "hands in the production pot" than we know of, as gandalf said "there are other forces at work in this world, besides the will of evil".

lastly, can anyone tell me what happened to dwalin in that last fight? last i remember was Fili and Kili going scouting and Thorin and Dwalin fighting goblins, next thing i know Thorin is by himself with Legolas giving him cover fire. Did they even show where Dwalin went? i must have missed it.

Did anyone else notice Gloin wearing a similar helmet alike Gimli's at some point during the movie?

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- RIP Fimbul and Narzug -

^Yes, but doesn't matter, their heavy armour was all for show, lol.



I agree with you for the most apart except the cgi action didn't take me out of the film as it did for you or the lack of certain characters and overuse or misuse of others. I can understand where you're coming from cuchulain.

As a Tolkien fanboy I could easily nit pick and say "Get out of here Legolas, this is Beorn's time not yours! Fili and Kili would've been better represented with a heroic death fighting beside Thorin", etc, etc. This is PJ's adaptation so it is what it is. If I was capable of making my own adaptation I would get [word deleted] thrown at me as well.

The acting and the production value of the real sets, costumes, props is what pulls me into this film. The soundtrack, whatever. All of that counters any of the nonsensical cgi and over the top action for me as it has in the previous films.

I was sad for Fili's demise, but Kili's didn't do anything for me mostly because I hated his love arc with Tauriel. It was so cliche Hollywood. You can only care about a couple skin deep if all they are is super attractive. Kili/Tauriel = Anakin/Padme for me.

Smaug... I have to agree with most others opinion. The cliff hangar in DoS was unnecessary. The destruction of Laketown would've been the perfect ending. Having Smaug be taken out in the first act (and all readers knew it was coming of course) felt less epic for being an opening. I get the sense that they were saving Smaug's demise for the third film because he's a titular character that can draw butts to the seats. Your Mike Tyson, Mayweather, St.-Pierre. DoS could have been given a proper ending like TTT. And as people bring up the Boromir example where the writters themselves explain why he had to die at the end of the Fellowship, and not the beginning of Towers. You can say these films are meant to be watched as a whole for the transitioning to make more sense. I don't see this statement as a pro for BotFA, rather a con saying that the film can't stand alone on its own merit.

Anyway enjoyed the film for whatever dislikes I may have, definitely will complete my EE blu-ray collection. It's not that the films were awful to me for all my nit-picking, they were good, maybe great, but not epic like LotR. Less grandiose extravagance is definitely more.

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My Lotr backlog: 305/952[][][][][][][][][][]32% completed
Painting Lineup: Mumakil x2, Rohan Heroes x8, Haradrim, SKoDA

I too saw it in 3D High FPS (though it was Ultra AVX format, not IMAX so I think the screen was a little smaller). Any ways, I agree most with what you said Dave. It was a really enjoyable movie, with a few things that were too short that will hopefully be cleared up in the EE. I too thought the worms could have been used better by Azog, but I dud not mind their minor cameo. So their existence was not a problem for me, though their implementation by Azog was a bit head scratching. And I too thought of Legolas' snow walking when he climbed up the falling rocks. That scene to me was a really cool way of reminding us that Leggy is an elf and human physics are not quite applicable to him.

All in all I really enjoyed the movie and thought it was a fitting conclusion.

Things to look forward to in the EE?
- 4 scenes from the trailer not shown (arrow volley, cart race through frozen river, charging dwarf rams cavalry, dwarf siege ballistas)
- more Beorn?
- more tie-ups at the end (coronation of Dain/Bard?)

I never felt a really big connection to the Hobbit book, so I really didn't mind most of the changes, although Tauriel was pretty dumb.

Not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but did anyone else expect Alfrid to say something like "I'm going to Rohan to see if their king wants an advisor" and then it turns out he later has a son named Grima?

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

I thought the film was ruined by the Kili-Tauriel romance.

Also, I know I'm in a minority here, but does anyone else agree that Martin Freeman isn't that great as Bilbo? He's not bad, just... not great.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

I think the majority would agree that Martin Freeman is one of the best things about the trilogy, but Ian Holm did set the bar high. Overall I find Bilbo to be a better character than Frodo because the latter came across as a pansy most of the time, not that I dislike Frodo but there was too much "Oooh Saam." complete with puppy eyes.

I've heard before some complaints about Freeman's portrayal of Bilbo; that he was playing as some cranky British elderly chap archetype, not that anyone else but Brits would recognize this archetype and those who watch Coronation Street.

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My Lotr backlog: 305/952[][][][][][][][][][]32% completed
Painting Lineup: Mumakil x2, Rohan Heroes x8, Haradrim, SKoDA

I thought Freeman did a decent job, some scenes were better than others. My favourite from this film had to be when Bilbo gave Bard and Thranduil the Arkenstone. That part felt genuin Bilbo to me, the mannerism of Freeman when Thranduil called him out as the one that set the dwarves free from his dungeon when dead on in my mind.

I think my favourite scene of all oddly enough was the scene after all the battles, and Bilbo is just sitting there, and Gandalf comes over and starts obnoxiously cleaning his pipe. Thats the kind of comic relief this series missed, the naked dwarves bathing and the trousers jokes were just too bad taste and low brow for this kind of film.

My biggest problem with this movie was the fact that it's called the BATTLE of the Five armies, and we end up seeing a lot of hero on hero fights that arnt in the big battle, but up on Raven Hill. This also follows into what happened to all the elves as they just kind of disappear after Thranduil rides into dale. Plus (this is completely personal taste) I would have liked to have seen a few more shots or scenes of the big battle as that would have helped with understanding where all the armies were during the fight. (My friends and I had to talk about it after the movie to get it all straight)
Oh! And I wasn't very happy with Legolas killing Bolg, I liked the fight they had at the end of DOS because it showed that Legolas isn't the Jesus of battle. But to have him kill Bolg in this movie kind of made me wonder why legolas just doesn't solve all of middle earths problems with his uncanny skills.

Basically for me, the first half of the movie was great, the second half was good but not what I was hoping for.

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Fight! Fight to the last man!

If this was to be our end then I would have them make SUCH AN END as to be worthy of remembrance