Obscure Character Discussion: Cirdan

Light of Elendil · **Joined:** Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:15 am **Posts:** 25

Having looked again these are massive, although you could use one as that mental leader of the werewolves who i cant remember!

nice figures though

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/ ... gures.html

daersalon · **Joined:** Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:34 am **Posts:** 265

The only issue with 'werewolves' is the GW lads see the word written in Tolkien's works and happily think no more about it and create a unit of 8 infantry... clearly thinking of the traditional notions we all have of shapechangers by moonlight.

However. Not so. Werewolves in Middle earth are large fearsome wolves, that are inhabited by the spirits of lesser Maiar or those of the nastier and impressive orcs that served Morgoth. They never shape change. They should be either solo monsters or at the very least a powerful cavalry unit.

As an aside - Tolkien also had 'vampires' in his writing. Again these have nothing to do with our notions of pasty skinned eastern european types with a penchant for haemaglobin.... All we do know is they were mysterious and rather bat-like.

So, I have, like others here have been hunting around for suitable werewolves to use as infantry as in the Angmar list, but deep down I know its a unit that really should be cavalry....

Hashut's Blessing · **Joined:** Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:41 pm **Posts:** 1279

Could always use Fenrisian Wolves (if you want to stick to GW models) and have each cover two bases or something...

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:46 pm

I agree with daersalon, didn't the Fellowship get attacked by Werewolves in FotR?

Since no one discussing Werewolves has actually talked about use in game, I'll start. Despite looking good on paper, an despite poor stylistic choices, they sound awesome, they are actually way too many points in game for what they bring to the table, too low defence, no Spirit Grasp and likely to be stuck at really cheap heavy infantry.

Ellorindar · **Joined:** Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:41 pm **Posts:** 111

The Fellowship are attacked by wolves and wargs (much like goblins and orcs, the two are occasionally interchangeable).

On examining the stats, I would say they are most comparable to uruk berserkers. They lose out on strength and defence, but gain speed and fight.

In terms of being true to the book, I would have to agree with Daersalon, werewolves should be standalone monsters. The most notable werewolf in Tolkien's narrative was a being called Carcharoth "the red maw", who was forever hungry and thirsty.

To the game. I would take the cave troll profile as a base, remove "throw stones" and give it a movement of 10, keeping the points cost the same That would equate to a rough approximation of a standalone werewolf in my opinion.

Does anyone have an equation for working out points for for profiles?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:15 am

Ellorindar wrote:

The Fellowship are attacked by wolves and wargs (much like goblins and orcs, the two are occasionally interchangeable)

But don't the bodies disappear after they were killed? Sounds more like werewolves to me since they were spirit-wolves hwilst Wargs are just really big, clever regular wolves.

As for Werewolf SBG stats, I made some before in the Warbands era, I had them at 50pts with Fight 6, Strength 5, Defence 5, Attacks 3, Wounds 2, Courage 4, causes Terror.

Ellorindar · **Joined:** Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:41 pm **Posts:** 111

GTW; I was thinking of alternate stats for werewolves for WOTR rather than SBG, although it is interesting that there is no SBG rules available for them.

The way that I have always interpreted the scene in FOTR with the wolves is that the wolves carry off their dead, rather than their bodies vanishing of their own accord. Then again, that is my interpretation.

daersalon · **Joined:** Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:34 am **Posts:** 265

Quote:

When the full light of the morning came no signs of the wolves were to be found, and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. No trace of the fight remained but the charred trees and the arrows of Legolas lying on the hill-top. All were undamaged save one of which only the point was left.

`It is as I feared,' said Gandalf. `These were no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness. Let us eat quickly and go!'

[Fellowship of the Ring : Book II, Chapter 4, A Journey in the Dark]

So indeed, more than Wargs, and the bodies were not simply pulled away as Blondilock's Arrows were left behind on the ground. They could be Werewolves, there is much in Middle Earth that Tolkien mentions only in passing or hints at.

Bilbo · **Posted:** Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:27 am

Or were they just eaten by there own kin?

daersalon · **Joined:** Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:34 am **Posts:** 265

Hehe ever seen a dog with a bone? He gnaws it for days. I doubt even scary fell Wargs are much different. Plus, would they really have settled down 20 metres from an elf with a wicked shot half the night to scrum down their packmates, eat all the juicy and crunchy bits and then leave the arrows nicely intact on the ground?

Bilbo · **Posted:** Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:32 pm

I think that the idea is that the dead bodies didn't go any where on their own! Also I have seen dogs put a lot of meat away very quickly. I think that the insinuation is that they were dragged off, rather than being were wolves that would still leave a corpse be it human or wolf.

JamesR · **Posted:** Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:27 pm

Bilbo wrote:

rather than being were wolves that would still leave a corpse be it human or wolf.

From what I understand Tolkiens werewolves didn't have a "human form'

Which begs the question:
For those of you who are far more familiar with this subject in Tolkiens world, for a model of a Werewolf should I purchase an upright and bipedal model? Or look for a wolf on all fours that is larger than a Warg Chieftain

daersalon · **Joined:** Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:34 am **Posts:** 265

@Bilbo. I think rather the insinuation is the bodies did not go anywhere, were not eaten, nor dragged off. The arrows remained behind after killing the 'Wargs'. Rather they were evil spirits in the form of wolves/wargs and in the light of day they had faded into the nothingness they truly were. There for even more evil and frightening than mere wolves. As Gandalf suggests.

@JamesR. Technically, A tolkien 'werewolf' is a great large warg/wolf. meaner and bigger than usual. It is an evil spirit in wolf for or a wolf inhabited by an evil spirit.

So ideally Middle Earth Werewolf should be on all fours and reminiscent of the Warg chieftan, but even nastier.. of possible.

However, if you want a werewolf to conform to the War of the Ring unit for Angmar and (mis) interpretation by GW .. then you will need 8 bipedal beasties. I doubt you could fit 8 quadrupeds on an infantry tray.

Unless someone can come up with an idea for modelling that somehow???

Bilbo · **Posted:** Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:00 pm

[quote="daersalon"]@Bilbo. I think rather the insinuation is the bodies did not go anywhere, were not eaten, nor dragged off. The arrows remained behind after killing the 'Wargs'. Rather they were evil spirits in the form of wolves/wargs and in the light of day they had faded into the nothingness they truly were. There for even more evil and frightening than mere wolves. As Gandalf suggests.

Interesting, I suspect that you are right!

Bilbo · **Posted:** Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:01 pm

[quote="daersalon"]@Bilbo. I think rather the insinuation is the bodies did not go anywhere, were not eaten, nor dragged off. The arrows remained behind after killing the 'Wargs'. Rather they were evil spirits in the form of wolves/wargs and in the light of day they had faded into the nothingness they truly were. There for even more evil and frightening than mere wolves. As Gandalf suggests.

Interesting, I suspect that you are right!

Or unless the Fellowship got all scared in the dark, and shot off a load of arrows at imagined foes!

Ellorindar · **Joined:** Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:41 pm **Posts:** 111

OK. Having spoken to Monsieur Daersalon last night, his version acclimatises rather nicely with the ideas put forth in the Silmarillion.

In terms of gaming with a standalone werewolf (as a monster rather than infantry or cavalry), I would design it thus;

Race Type
Werewolf Monster

M F S D A R C Mt
10 6 6 5 3 2 3 -

Special rules
Very Hard to kill, terror and feral charge (the same rule as the normal werewolves).

I've taken a cave troll as a basic standing profile for a small monster, and tweaked it appropriately. I gave the werewolf a lower defence, but higher movement,

Cost: 85/90 points.

What do you think?

I would use either a warg chieftain as a base model and green stuff a larger mane or "ruff(?)", or utilise the "thunder wolf cavalry" from 40k that I discovered last night at the club.

Harfoot · **Posted:** Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:30 am

I think that sounds very good Elliot do you have an appropriate model to use?
Are you thinking of using it?

Ellorindar · **Joined:** Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:41 pm **Posts:** 111

Yo Harfoot, how's tricks?

I discovered these models on eBay while researching;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Alternative-F ... 43ad903720

It looks as though the model stands on a 60mm base, which would be appropriate, but I can't tell the scale of the beast because there aren't any other models around it. It has to be larger than a warg in order to look good.

I also believe there should be a 'hero' werewolf model.
In this case, I would call it draughir - literally 'wolf-lord' in sindarin. If the model above is of a size greater than the warg models, this would be hugely appropriate.

Yes, I would be supremely interested in using a werewolf model.

daersalon · **Joined:** Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:34 am **Posts:** 265

The profile is close, but also after comparison with Mordor troll (as your profile sits between that and the cave troll) I suggest:

Reduce to Hard to Kill not Very Hard to Kill (misnomer that those things are) and raise fight to 7 (as for existing werewolves pack) courage to 4, points for that to fit in the troll monster-level paradigm would be 90 points.

Though point to note. You are calling this beasty Anfauglir (aka Carcharoth) a named werewolf. A named monster should have might and another ability, look at ol' Buhrdur and Gulavhar for example. As a general 'solo' werewolf though it is good.

So for a more 'Tolkien' take on 'werewolves' I suggest:

Draugdaer* (0ne to 3 companies) 80 points/company
Draugdaer Spirit Cavalry M 10 F7/- S5 D4 A4 R2 C3 Mt -
Draudaer Chieftan F8 C4 Mt 2
Weapons: Sharp maws, sharper claws (hand weapons)

Command: A Draugdaer chieftan can be bought for 50 points.

Special Rules:
Terror. We Stand Alone. Indomitable.
Ferocious charge. Charge d6+8". +8 attacks on charge. (similar to flying monsters) Strike as monsters.

*Replacement to the 'werewolf' infantry unit in the Angmar list.
==================================
Draugfaer 90 points single model

Spirit Monster M 10 F7/- S5 D5 A3 R2 C4 Mt -

Weapons: Mouth and Claws. (hand weapons)

Special Rules:
Terror. Hard to Kill.
Feral Charge. Gains +6 attacks on the charge
===================================
Anfauglir 150 points single Model (Legendary)
Spirit Monster M 10 F8/- S6 D6 A3 R2 C5 Mt 3

Weapons: Mouth and Claws. (hand weapons)

Can use the following epic actions as if he were an Epic hero:
Epic Rampage

Special Rules:
Terror. Very Hard to Kill.
Feral Charge. Gains +6 attacks on the charge
====================================

Ellorindar · **Joined:** Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:41 pm **Posts:** 111

I agree with the above points. However, I do think that Anfauglir/Carcharoth ought to have a similar special rule to the cave drake, wherein he swallows his opponent whole, considering his history (biting off the hand of Beren for instance) and his very name 'the red maw'.

Obscure Character Discussion: Cirdan

Who is online