Basically, when Groblog was first released last year, he had this amazing ability to inmprove the fury spell, yet now, with th event of heroic channeling, anyone can do it, but they need might. So, what do you guys think, should Groblog be used or not.

Advantages of Groblog over Channelling:
-You don't have to use the shaman's one point of might, especially useful if you fail 2 rolw with your first go
-It works on multiple Shamans, including Groblog means that all your Shamans will be affected and you din't have to roll constantly. If you have 3 Shamans, then chances are 1 will fail to cast, and then it's the might over.
-It can be used more than once. If your Shaman ifs knocked out of fury, he can recast and still get the bonus.

Advantages of Channeling over Groblog:- If Groblog is killed, which, face it, is quite likely, not too good in comabt, and the monkey business gives him extra height for better shooting, then all of your Shamans' Fury spells will drop in power.
- In continuation, if this happems, if you want to then call heroic channeling, you would have to deliberately loose a fight and survuve then recast and it more than a little chancy.

So, what are your thoughts?

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

If you wanted to recast Fury, you would actually have to run out of will, it's now an exhaustion spell, which of course means you can't recast. I would say that Groblog is great, BUT you'll really want to keep him away from trouble. I give him a full warband of archers and stick 18in away from anyone. 12 archers will keep him relatively safe and do a slight amount of damage.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

I have been pondering this question for the past week as the answer will affect my decision of buying a Groblog model. I came to the same conclusions regarding the benefits of including Groblog.
I have some comments to make on the disadvantages. What forbids a shaman to recast Fury in order to access the channeled version after Groblog dies?
Why did the stupid monkey-goblin had to be on top of a pillar? If you keep him out of combat 3 might points are practically wasted. At least he could have a bow. Or someone can cut the pillar off. I don't imagine this being illegal.

I think it's preferable to include Groblog, and try somehow to protect him.

Line of sight is actually one of my biggest gripes with the game rules. It really annoys me when a game mechanic gives a cool model (I'm in the camp that likes the Groblog figure) instantly gives you an in-game disadvantage. Of course you can cut the model off the pillar but then the pose is ruined. We've house ruled that Groblog is the same height as a normal goblin. In a similar vein there have been a lot of posts on these forums recently about converting WOMT and elves to be holding axes to make the most of the special strike rules and again this seems mad to me. I think if you're going to have the weapon rules they should say 'each troop type must carry the hand weapons that the models come with' or similar. LOS is also open to exploitation from the In The Way rolls; as you only have to be able to see part of model to target it I often see people targeting banners/captains through 4 or 5 other models when common sense would tell you they're not an eligible target. I think a better rule wold be that you can only target a model that requires a maximum of 2 ITW rolls or something. Alternatively perhaps it could get harder each roll, 4+ for the first ITW, 5+ for the second, 6+ for the third etc. Perhaps Legolas, The King's Huntsman etc. could ignore this rule. Just a thought.

As for Groblog vs Channelling I vote for Groblog. Channelled Fury is good but I certainly wouldn't risk the Might point for a 66% dance of success so I'll always throw 2 Will points at it. This then means that even if Fury is successful my shaman can neither cast Transfix or call a heroic action for the rest of the game. Of course, worst case scenario if I fail to roll the 3+ on two dice then I've wasted 2 Will and 1 Might and I can't cast Fury for the rest of the game either.

Groblog on the other hand takes the risk out. I see Constantine's point about hiding a 3 Might hero at the back but of course you're essentially adding 2 Might back into the pool as the shamans won't have used theirs on channelling Fury. I also think it's no bad thing to have 3 Might safe at the back of the board for use in the end-game when your opponent may well have run out - this happens a lot when I take Vrasku in my Isengard army. There's also the big benefit that he affects all your shamans, after all the chances of rolling that double 1/2 if you're rolling Fury for 3 or 4 shamans goes up!

Ultimately I think Moria armies need lots of captains to lead lots of goblins and Groblog's special rule and 3 Might make him good value for his points. He also frees up your other shamans to call heroic moves and cast transfix.

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Finished 2nd in the 2014 GBHL. My Wife's so proud

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Thanks for the thoughts guys.

@Draugy, I skimmed through that part of the magic, so I didn't know about exhaustion spells. I would've suggested hiding him behind a Troll or Dweller, but keeping him completely out of the way would be better.

@Constantine, aye, the pilllar is silly, I would have converted mine to be standing if i could think of any use for the pillar, as the pillar is why Groblog costs more than Ashrak. Since his shoot value is 5+ he owuldn';t really add anything but numbers of D6, but he does seem better in reserve. I agree and say Groblog is better than channeling.

@Doctor, houseruling his height is agood idea, but he should still be alittle taller than the warriors, th eheight of a Captain maybe. Ranks of ITW? Well that would reduce people from wanting to shooot at obscure targets, but sometimes that's the only way to win. I agree, a Shaman is worthless hould he fail using 2 will and a might. The might at the back also seems okay. It' snot wasting might if your trying to keep him alive. Grobloggy needs to hide. Thanks for working out statistics too.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

The LoS for shooting and spells is something that requires a little common sense and friendliness in games. Locally we enjoy making our forces look good and this includes having Captains, Banners, and Heroes stand out some times. In some cases it's simply some conversion or paint job on the model, but often these special models are set above the others on more elaborate terrain bases. As we don't believe it's right to punish such creativity we play locally that the LoS to the model should be drawn basically to the height of where the model would be on a generic base. This is usually easy to do because they often have several of their own kind around, but even if they were more alone it's still not a hard thing to gauge.

The only exception comes in if the model will be using this higher position for their own benefited LoS to shoot or case, for example. If you wanat it one way you have to take it both ways.

Don't expect this at tournaments of course but your local players should be fine as long as you talk it out before play. Just say:

"All heroes on the decorative bases will only draw their own LoS from normal warrior height and can only be seen and targeted by enemy models the same."

WYSIWYG should enhance game play, not make be used as a weapon to cut down creativity in such a silly way.

/rant off

Sorry about the tangent there. With that out of the way I do think that a Goblin army has the ability to field enough cheap Might and large numbers of models that Groblog is probably the more effective option. And as mentioned having some reserve Might in the back ranks that you can pull forward near the end of the game can help decide the match.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

The other thing that we discussed was what effect (if any) his pillar has. If you position the model right you can actually make sure that the pillar is in between Groblog and the enemy archers, surely gaining him an ITW roll.

Discuss...

P.S. Completely agree with all Beowolf said. It was only at last year's doubles tournament that I was introduced to this kind of crazy banner sniping. We've always played at home that you need to be able to see 50% of a model to target him at all. Works well for us when playing amongst friends but obviously at tournaments you need to play by the letter of the rules.

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Finished 2nd in the 2014 GBHL. My Wife's so proud

Free SBG fanzine: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29569

Maybe a bit offtopic but can you also cast fury on the goblin king? And if so is it possible to do a heroic channeling and mithril crown and the "unlimited fate" on the goblin king cause that would be hilarious.

Don't have my Hobbit book to hand but...

You don't cast Fury 'on' someone, it affects all models within range, assuming the Goblin King's profile says 'goblin' I assume he would benefit.

Pretty sure the Mithril Crown and Fury don't stack (hence in this thread no-one is saying 'both') as they both make Fury a 5+ rather than adding 1 to the Fury roll.

Not sure what you mean by unlimited fate but this might be because I don't have the Goblin King's rules to hand.

_________________
Finished 2nd in the 2014 GBHL. My Wife's so proud

Free SBG fanzine: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29569

Nope. Terrain on the base does not count. Otherwise you'll have people converting their warriors to be surrounded by walls.

All my Moria goblins would be modeled with tall skinny stones all around, and my Wood Elves would all have bushes up to their waist and Elf Cloaks. It is a double standard though that base terrain can't help but it can hurt. Again...just ignore it. I doubt most of us play the majority of our games in a tournament setting anyway.

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Just a quick thought on using him, actually taken from an opponent I fought a while ago.
I see a lot of mention about how keeping him safe wastes his might points...
Well behind the lines is fairly safe, form up your usually goblin line and then put an extra guard of goblins between him and that. This should keep him close enough to use those might points at repositioning the army and out of combat, if your opponent does try and fight through to him they're basicly attacking your centre, good for goblins as you can flank around the sides.

Also if they do manage to kill him you still have your shaman active, and the fearless they provide is much more valuable. I think by taking Groblog you are making your opponent have to choose between slaying the warlord or taking out the shaman.

For archery defence, take a batswarm, will keep groblog hidden for four wounds at the minimum, and you can argue that the swarm is partially covered by goblins so will get in the ways, at least that's always how I've seen it.

I thought about it too, but then the points investment increases too much, and the bat swarm will essentially be wasted on protecting him. I much prefer your first idea, of keeping him close to the frontline yet not in the midst of the fighting.

Another thing about Groblog is to keep him within 6in of a shaman.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Yes, some good points here. My though would include have Groblog hiding behind a troll or dweller that is on the front line, ready to move should the monsteer look in peril. Better archery defence that earns pts.

So noone arguing against using Groblog then?

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Nope, it would be imprudent of depriving all of your shamans their might.
Now let's start a new thread discussing Cave Troll vs Dweller in the Dark!

I don't use him, channelled fury is fine for me and if I really want to transfix things I'll take a Wraith. Moria doesn't particularly need transfix as it has bat swarms, cheap monsters, cheap captains for Heroic Strikes (in combination with a monster) and Druzhag. Lots of combos for taking out heroes already.

I'm not arguing against Groblog, I think he's very good, I just don't think he's essential. The points you spend on Groblog and his attendants could be spent on fast, aggressive stuff like a Warg Chieftain and some Wargs, for example, giving you a dynamic attacking element to your army instead of a defensive warband, lurking at the back with Groblog.

Groblog and 9 goblin archers to guard him costs the same as a shade or a goblin drum. I wonder whether Groblog's fury rule and the might your shamens would save would keep more goblins alive over the course of a game than the drum or shade would by helping to win more fights, coupled with channelled fury from the shamens.

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personally I think the whole channelling thing is ludicrous it's seriously nerfed magic in the game and it's a massive waste of might points when you consider all the spells are weaker now.
Don't get me wrong a shaman being as capable to transfix a great hero the same as a nazgul is really untolkieny but to turn fury into an exhaustion spell man that sux.
before I used to run this as standard
2shamen
groblog
blackshield shaman
20 blackshields
20 gobo spears
and then filler material for points( bats, warg marauders, trolls or dwellers...)

by these new rules shamen are worthless sap their will and their done for, before you needed to actually get base to base which I prefer.

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I am under the impression that even with the old rules if a shaman's will run out the spell's effect ceased.

No, it used to be that it stayed in effect until the shaman actually lost a fight. Having your Nazgul Sapping Shaman Will seems a bit of a waste of will for the Nazgul. And using that as an excuse for not taking shamans is like saying Gandalf isn't any good with out Will, so a Nazgul just Saps it and he's useless. While true, it's not a very good reason to not take Gandalf.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.