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 Post subject: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:07 am 
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I mean, seriously he is a Goblin not a Troll! He's just massive and it really bugs me!
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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:10 am 
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I think that PJ took the title "Great Goblin" to mean humungous goblin.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:25 am 
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I'm honestly more offended by the fact that he's always called "the Great Goblin" in the book, but either PJ or GW (or both) decided to give him the more generic and already used title of Goblin King.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:10 am 
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I think he is supposed to be massive in the book, but I don't remember. Also, the goblins are supposed to have suffered from mutations and stuff so that could explain his size. Well according to GW that is.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:21 am 
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Orcs and goblins originated with elves taken by Morgoth and 'engineered' into terrible, twisted forms that were evil in appearance and nature. What is not completely clear is whether some of these orcs/goblins retained the immortal capability - but it is clear that some were very, very long-lived (hundreds of years). So, you get to be top of the heap in the Misty mountain colony and everyone has to keep you happy, so over time you get bigger. Not as big as PJ & Co have protrayed but some size differential is to be expected. Tolkien made references to half-trolls and hobgoblins - it seems the evil side would try anything to come up with a new twist or type of soldier that might help them defeat the forces of Good. IMO, PJ has gone a bit too Jabba the Hutt with this one.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:25 pm 
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I'm actually thinking the Rankin Bass version of the Great Goblin was more scary and honest to the book, but we'll see how it plays out in the film.

Really looking forward to the Extended DVD release of these films to get some behind the scenes insight on decision processes.

And yeah, it bugs me too that they are calling it the Goblin King so much. There is only one Goblin King...

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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:56 pm 
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I've read somewhere that the Great Goblin was possibly a "Boldog" that is, a lesser Maia (much weaker than a Balrog) who has taken Orcish shape, or "Hroa." Seems plausible anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:06 pm 
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I've got "The Hobbit" somewhere around here, I just need to find it...
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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:14 pm 
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The Great Goblin is also much bigger than I had imagined him myself.

Truth is, though, that the exact size was not given. Surely he was a lot bigger than a regular Goblin.
In several places in his works, Tolkien writes about Orcs being smaller than Men. Goblin is mostly used as a synonym for Orcs. Uruks were about the same size as Men, and very rarely some Orc Chieftains were said to be Man-size too (like the one that stabbed Frodo near Balin's Tomb).
Now when we apply all we know to say something about the Great Goblin's size, I think it would be most logical to assume that he was about man-size or a little larger (when standing up). So, personally I'm thinking about 7' at the very most (like the highest people of Middle-earth, the Numenoreans). Now he was probably of great girth (I think there's some quotes on that). His exceptionally length (for an Orc/Goblin) and belly -I reckon- are why he received his name.


By the way, I just remembered this:

Quote:
Suddenly a sword flashed in its own light. Bilbo saw it go right through the Great Goblin as he stood dumbfounded in the middle of his rage. He fell dead, and the goblin soldiers fled before the sword shrieking into the darkness.


So there we have it. Glamdring went right through the Great Goblin. With the Great Goblin being the size as it is now, I don't see this happening! I guess we can safely assume he was meant to be smaller.


@Lord Hurin: in some published letters from the last years of Tolkien it's revealed that he thought that some Maiar had perhaps taken the form of Orcs too. He then speculates that the Great Goblin might have been a Boldog too.
Now when the Hobbit was written, Tolkien did most likely not yet think of him as a Boldog. In the last few years before he died, he re-wrote a lot of stuff, re-thinking lots of things. The Boldog is first mentioned in this time, many long years after the release of the Hobbit.
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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:36 pm 
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Fëanor, the mighty elf wrote:
@Lord Hurin: in some published letters from the last years of Tolkien it's revealed that he thought that some Maiar had perhaps taken the form of Orcs too. He then speculates that the Great Goblin might have been a Boldog too.
Now when the Hobbit was written, Tolkien did most likely not yet think of him as a Boldog. In the last few years before he died, he re-wrote a lot of stuff, re-thinking lots of things. The Boldog is first mentioned in this time, many long years after the release of the Hobbit.


Yep, but I can imagine PJ and co reading those letters and deciding to make him bigger to stick out more. At least that gives it some justification. He's still quite a bit bigger than I had imagined, but I can live with it using the above-mentioned logic.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:09 pm 
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I read somewhere that they did indeed use letters and other published works (UT and Appendices). If so, they could have found this. I guess it's some kind of justification, but they wouldn't have needed to justify anything if they just kept it to the book..
I really don't like the model either. Guess I'll just have to sculpt him myself!
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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:27 pm 
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I like the look of the guy. The only thing that bugs me is the stupid name change.


And no, David Bowie is not awesome, but that film is.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:27 pm 
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I quite like the model actually but I just find it so unrealistic, "sigh".
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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:13 am 
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The Glamdring produced for the films, and available in replica form, has a 36 inch blade to suit the height of the actors (5'11'' and thereabouts). Bear in mind that in Tolkien's books, the elves it was originally made for were almost 7' tall, so you would add 4''-6'' more to the blade length. Either way, that Great Goblin is going down. Why? Well, Glamdring was imbued with magical properties like Sting - PJ forgot to have it glowing in the 3 LotR films (that always annoyed me). Glamdring was the sword that helped Gandalf take down Durinsbane. So an oversized goblin is not really an issue, in book or film form. In the books, Glamdring and Orcrist scared the goblins - these were legendary blades, given the nicknames Beater and Biter by the orcs. Glamdring had been wielded in the wars of Gondolin by Turgon, the elf king. Orcrist had also come from Gondolin and also glowed in the presence of orcs/goblins.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:04 pm 
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That's right about Glamdring, but that was not my point (might not have worded it carefully enough).
I meant: with the current size of the Great Goblin, Glamdring would probably be too short to actually pas through his belly. Therefore, the Great Goblin must have been intended to be smaller than it is in the movie.
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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:36 pm 
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It can still pass "through" his belly, it just won't pass through his entire body. Think of itjust slicing his stomach open so all his guts fall out. He's still gonna die.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:56 am 
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Yeah... I never imagined him to be THAT big... but I can live with it....

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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Am I the only one who actually imagined the Great Goblin would be a huge, fat, grotesque, powerful tcreature then?

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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:01 pm 
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GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Am I the only one who actually imagined the Great Goblin would be a huge, fat, grotesque, powerful tcreature then?

No, I imagined him like that too.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is the Goblin King a Troll?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:19 pm 
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GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Am I the only one who actually imagined the Great Goblin would be a huge, fat, grotesque, powerful tcreature then?


Yeah, but not so big Gandalf couldn't lop of his head (which is what he did).
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