elf problem

celeborn · **Joined:** Fri May 27, 2011 12:02 pm **Posts:** 24

In games-workshop site it is said that High Elf Regiments are Arguably the best combat-oriented common formation in War of The Ring.But if you place them against a dwarf warrior kinband they are not that good even if they charge .Do they get a fight value of 7 with glaives?

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:40 pm

That extra Fight value isn't all it's cracked up to be IMO. The extra couple dice are nice but if you can't crack the armor of your foe it doesn't matter. In your situation vs. Dwarves as well as many fights vs. Evil (Morannon Orc, Isengard Uruk Hai, etc.) the armor value of your typical foe is so high head on that your actual wounds scored isn't very good. Combine that with the cost difference between the Elves and most other common Formations and you will also probably be out numbered. Unless you are using High Elves, you are probably also facing a foe that can wound you easier than you can wound them. In the simultaneous-hits style of WotR melee combat those three factors ( hard to score your own wounds + easier for foe to wound you + inferior numbers ) do not add up to success.

High Elf defense helps a bit with the second factor, but the first and third are still issues. I would much rather have seen GW give +1 to wound with Glaives rather than +1 Fight.

Vidas · **Joined:** Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:23 am **Posts:** 17

Agreecompletely with Beowulf. Essentially for Elves to work you need to fill out with as many heroes, banners etc as you can to give them an edge, which is expensive

Telchar · **Posted:** Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:30 pm

First lesson of GW gaming: Don't ever, ever trust GW on tactics... I mean, they say banners are useful :roll:

All said above is right: the GW site thinks Fight is equal to other values, but it just isn't, because the other affect all dice rolls by the formation (as in All "to hit" rolls, All Courage tests, etc.), while Fight just adds one die (which is rather meaningless in a game where 32 dice are not uncommon).

Xelee · **Posted:** Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:50 pm

Hi Celeborn,

Further to the above, I think this will lay the issue out in some more detail: http://roughwotr.blogspot.com/2011/08/w ... elves.html

Quote:

TLDR? Elves are horribly over-costed in WOTR and if I saw a game between two generals of equivalent levels of familiarity with the game (I hesitate to associate WOTR with anything so serious as skill!), I'd back the one who wasn't playing Elves every-time. However, if you do want to play Elves I suggest you focus on the tougher infantry with Gladriel and some other cheap heroes to benefit from her might. I would also suggest you consider house-ruling.

So yes to your question, for all the good that does them.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:28 pm

On my end, my only serious Good army is Elves...and Wood Elves at that. First time I ever played I went toe-to-toe with Uruk Hai as I never had a slight hesitation doing so in SBG. But with the simultaneous combat of WotR I think my 4-5 Companies managed to kill perhaps half dozen Uruks. The return strikes from the Uruks wiped out probably 3 Companies of the Wood Elves. Woops. Lesson learned and never repeated.

For other justifications of Elf cost, their higher Move, combined with Pathfinders, would normally give some good tactical advantages...but every Evil army I see is so stocked with Wings Of Terror that is almost lost. Their high Courage minimizes the risk to Spirit Grasp foes (my Spirits chew up Dwarf armies pretty easily for example), but there aren't usually many Spirits played. Their high Fight value gives an extra die or two when it's their turn to calculate, but that has been covered above. They otherwise only have average Defense and Strength values.

Elves (especially Wood Elves and Galadhrim) are probably the only army I recommend going more heavy on Epic Heroes (and perhaps Captains) than I'd play in any of my other armies. With the right combos of Epics, Captains and good Magic and very careful attention to your tactics, terrain, etc. you can have a competitive force unless you're facing a Nazgul/Gothmog spam Mordor army...but then that force is a PITA for pretty much anything.

Due to the points especially, you are going to have a hard time with Elves and need to look for every advantage you can squeeze out of the to level the playing field considering their cost vs. such forces as Morannon Orcs.

ElfGeneral · **Joined:** Fri May 11, 2012 6:04 pm **Posts:** 336

If you want to play a combat heavy elven formation it's worth spending the extra 5 points for the High Elf cohort (60 points is a lot for a single company but the +2(7) defence is invaluable)

The Cohort also allows you to take a elf commander/captain with fight value 7 courage 6 and 3 might for 50 points which makes him more than match for any other captain and some epic heroes e.g a goblin captain for the same price has fight 3 courage 3 and 2 might.

I often take Cirdan as well if I'm fielding a large force allowing them to increase there defence to 9 with his epic defence (Galadriel's Touched by Destiny and epic renewal mean you can repeat this over and over if you need to), his command spells allow you to use Blessing of the Valar to heal lost units or Immobilise to stop units charging them and lastly his Gift of Foresight helps deflect one in six hits which is nice given elves high cost. He is very vulnerable in heroic duels but I usually use get the Commander to call duel anyway meaning the enemy hero can't call one on him.

Lays · **Posted:** Sat May 12, 2012 2:57 pm

i play a lot against elfs, wood gala and high.. With goblin army and dwarf army.. The strong points they have are ambush with gildor, glorfindel, almost every hero has magic, elven cloaks on the wood elfs so i cant shoot back, the terror is good aswell againts orks and my cave trolls, the knights easely kill a small formation of goblins..
Also on the low kills i see in other comments: use more heroic duels.. With the high fight value u kill every one and large amount of warriors aswell..

just find a good combo to use them, or a good ally.. My mates who play elves use men of nummenor or rohan..

smaul · **Posted:** Mon May 14, 2012 9:32 pm

I think GW must have thought that goblin and orc armies would fail terror tests more and then give the elves a lot of extra fight, but with heroes its hard to fail a terror test, at least in our group.

The only time the elves really pack a punch straight up is when the terrorize someone and then get all the extra battle skill dice vs a F0, but again, seems to rare to make them worth the points. IMHO

Telchar · **Posted:** Tue May 15, 2012 3:49 pm

smaul wrote:

I think GW must have thought that goblin and orc armies would fail terror tests more and then give the elves a lot of extra fight, but with heroes its hard to fail a terror test, at least in our group.

The only time the elves really pack a punch straight up is when the terrorize someone and then get all the extra battle skill dice vs a F0, but again, seems to rare to make them worth the points. IMHO

My theory is that GW didn't get how sickly low D4/5 actually is. They don't see that you have a good chance of losing 1/3 of your troops or more to a far cheaper formation. And yes, the elves don't pack enough punch either, or that could be compensated.

ElfGeneral · **Joined:** Fri May 11, 2012 6:04 pm **Posts:** 336

GW definitely miscalculated somewhere the elf army should be full of elites as it is but not pathetically weak elites, where you need a 60 point per company unit so you have the same as a 25 point Orcs unit. I personally think they must have forgot the combat was simultaneous so it doesn't matter whether they get 7 more dice per fight they will still take the same number casualties meaning that nearly every time the larger formation will always win against a fragile low defence unit(which happens to be ALL of the elf units). Also the lack of any strength 4 or 5 units (there all strength 3 except the Guardians of Caras Galadhon which are 70 POINTS PER COMPANY and only defence 5) meaning they lack the ability to hit back against higher defence units meaning they are fairly ineffective all round.

You have no idea how much this annoys me i love the elves in the books and the film and think GW have made a right mess of what could have been a frankly really thematic and competitive force.

Telchar · **Posted:** Fri May 18, 2012 5:30 pm

ElfGeneral wrote:

GW definitely miscalculated somewhere the elf army should be full of elites as it is but not pathetically weak elites, where you need a 60 point per company unit so you have the same as a 25 point Orcs unit. I personally think they must have forgot the combat was simultaneous so it doesn't matter whether they get 7 more dice per fight they will still take the same number casualties meaning that nearly every time the larger formation will always win against a fragile low defence unit(which happens to be ALL of the elf units). Also the lack of any strength 4 or 5 units (there all strength 3 except the Guardians of Caras Galadhon which are 70 POINTS PER COMPANY and only defence 5) meaning they lack the ability to hit back against higher defence units meaning they are fairly ineffective all round.

You have no idea how much this annoys me i love the elves in the books and the film and think GW have made a right mess of what could have been a frankly really thematic and competitive force.

Totally right! Just one little thing to mitigate the first problem, Galadriel and Gandalf both combine Touched by Destiny with Epic Defense, which can make your core formation D5(7), which in turn makes your 50 pts Galadhrim equal to 25 point WOMT instead of 20 pt Oathsworn militia, whoohoo!

ElfGeneral · **Joined:** Fri May 11, 2012 6:04 pm **Posts:** 336

I agree with you they some have some good Epic Heroes, I don't think I've seen a really good or successful elf army that didn't have Galadriel in it and a few other heroes do help shift the balance back in there favour

1) Thranduil for 125pts with 3 might, fight 7 resilience 3, Epic Shot and Strike and mastery 2 in Wilderness is almost as overpowered as a ringwraith

2) Legolas at 200 points he's expensive but with Epic Defence and Swift Strike (means he strikes before other infantry or cavalry if he is mounted) is just what an elf army needs. Crippling and Epic Shot also make him great at bringing down monsters

3)Elf Commander (captain upgrade for High Elf Cohort) not an epic hero but for a captain he is amazing fight 7 courage 6 and 3 might means he is amazing at cutting down enemy captains Moria Goblin captain for the same price is fight 3 and might 2

4)Haldir at 75 points he very good for his price, he's basically a glorified captain but his ability to move from formation to formation make him more useful, Epic shot is still good at killing monsters and Epic Sacrifice make your elves hardy as anything for 1 turn but only use it late into the game and if he's down to 1 might. As I always take Galadriel his Guardian of Lothlorien rule means the formation he is in will always pass its AtD roll which is nice bonus

I accept your point about Gandalf I have used him (In grey form, white is to expensive and the elves don't need either the voice of command or terror upgrade) with and instead of Galadriel in the past but he can ally with any army so you could say you can now make your WOMT D7(9) for half the price of the cheapest elf unit, that is actually whoohoo!

ElfGeneral · **Joined:** Fri May 11, 2012 6:04 pm **Posts:** 336

Elves do also have the largest number of Epic Heroes with Epic Defence than any other faction

Gondor: Only one Peregrin Took

Rohan:Again only one Theodred

Elves: SEVEN!!! Galadriel (Lady of Lothlorien), Celeborn, Legolas, Ciridan. Gil-galad, Arwen and Elrohir

Dwarves: They have two but I'm not sure why as there hard as nails anyway, prehaps it just to augment there current skills. Anyway they are Floi and Balin

Mordor: Only Gothmog

Isengard: None

Misty Mountains: None

Fallen Realms: None

This would suggest that they know the Elves are incrediblely flimsy and have actually given them a way to solve it even if it cost them a lot in Epic heroes

Telchar · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2012 6:21 pm

But to do it more then once will cripple most of these heroes ability to do something else, and such high points you might as well buy yourself a High Elf Cohort.

ElfGeneral · **Joined:** Fri May 11, 2012 6:04 pm **Posts:** 336

I know it was just a theory from a points point of view Celeborn is good but not worth taking over Thranduil, Gil-galad is to expensive useless your playing LOTS of points and Arwen is the same as Celeborn

I always take Galadriel (I've said it before and I'll say it again I don't think an elf army can be successful without her) so is worth taking, Cirdan is quite good but only has one might, Elrohir has the same problem and also loses the joint brothers ability if he uses and Epic action rather than a heroic one and Legolas is actually really good for a elf army because of his other skills but at 200 points not worth taking over Galadriel or Thranduil (it's hard to argue that Crippling Shot, Swift Strike and Epic Defence are worth 75 points + losing Epic Strike +1F, +1R and Mastery 2 Widerness) and it's impractical to take them all of them as it would be 500 points.

So it's just another example where GW have ruined the Elf list

Deathlord · **Joined:** Thu May 09, 2013 5:50 pm **Posts:** 8

Does anyone have any tactics for a Galadhrim army, my army:
Glorfindel
2 companies haldir's elves
3 companies galadhrim warriors with legolas
what shall i get next, tactics?

Telchar · **Posted:** Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:15 am

Didn't you ask already in another thread?

Anyway:

1 Change Haldir's Elves for Haldir + Galadhrim. A far better deal.
2 Change Legolas for Galadriel (lady)
3 Get MORE troops. Far more.

elf problem

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