Saruman or 2 Wraiths

NotLegolasJustTipsy · **Posted:** Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:39 pm

Would anyone ever take Saruman over 2 Ring Wraiths? Just wondered if anyone would and why?

WayUnderTheMountain · **Posted:** Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:23 pm

Yes, I have with Rohan because the Forces of Good don't have access to Wraiths but they do to Saruman. :-D

I have considered using Saruman over two Ringwraiths many times with my FR army because spell-wise the Spells of Ruin are better than Spells of Darkness or Dismay against the Elf Havens and Misty Mountains army lists I typically face. Goblins can fail many of the Courage tests because in the end they still outnumber you like twenty to one. Also several monsters and heroes can shrug off Darkness and Dismay spells but Ruin can leave them hurting. Also, Saruman is cheaper than two ringwraiths and has that voice special rule which does a better job of stopping charges then terror does.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:14 pm

Not many monsters can shrug of Strength from Corrupion more than once, and Heroes be warey of Black Dart. Darkness spells are the most powerful overall, the only readsons to take Saruman over two are for variety/choice, resistance 3, and 3 might with overlord. Saruman over one wraith, but not two. Now, if you could take Saruman and a Wraith, then you're talking.

WayUnderTheMountain · **Posted:** Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:59 pm

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Not many monsters can shrug of Strength from Corrupion more than once

Fair Point, forgot the strength for corruption spell.

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Heroes be warey of Black Dart.

Problem with Black Dart is you have to be within 6" of the Hero to use it. Typically I try to stay more than 6" away unless I've charged in which case I've already missed my chance to cast.

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

The only reasons to take Saruman over two are for variety/choice, resistance 3, and 3 might with overlord.

You're forgetting his epic actions which improve his casting, touched by destiny (free epic action/turn), Voice of Saruman and slightly higher Courage. While Darkness maybe considered one of the stronger lores, Saruman also has Command which almost no Evil Epic Hero has and its a lore not to be trifled with either. Also people are less hateful of Saruman than multi-wraiths. :-D

Though in the end, I do agree with GtW. Saruman is better than one Wraith, but certainly not two.

NotLegolasJustTipsy · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:04 am

So if you were thinking of using around 250 points the best way to spend it is on 2 Wraiths I guess. It makes Saruman look really high priced at 240 don't you think?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:06 am

not really,the wraths are just sickly overpowered.

NotLegolasJustTipsy · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:10 am

But why has Saruman 200 points for good but 240 points for evil?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:12 am

because the guys who wrote wotr are eejits

WayUnderTheMountain · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:33 am

They think Overlord, Touched By Destiny and Inspiring Leader should be worth 45 points while losing 1 point of Courage should be -5 so it balances out at a 40pt hike. There is a significant difference between the two, I agree but I think Saruman the White should have been more powerful than Saruman of Many Colours

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:35 am

Not completely, you missed the loss of the Spells of Dismay.

daersalon · **Joined:** Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:34 am **Posts:** 265

Why would I take Saruman over 2 Ringwraiths?

Well most of these points are covered above, but as an Isengard player, with saruman at the core of that army I will reiterate.

Two things: Spells of ruin (mastery 3) and epic ruination and epic channelling (for free)

It depends how you play them, but I find myself far more stumped with Nazgul and darkness/dismay than I do for the spells of ruin with Saruman. He may be vulnerable to Heroic duel, but that aside, he just burns enemy formations... Stick him in a defence 7 warband deep in enemy territory... dare them to charge... and then Tremor multiple formations at once. Also his voice of command helps halve the charges against him anyway...

Nazgul indeed are underpriced, but with 1 might point and no inspiring leader rule.. well, saruman and his ruin spells and inspiring leader master for me are worth it everytime (uruks have low courage too, sigh... with saruman around they are far more handy)

I think even then he is better than two not just one wraith. though if i could i would take a wraith along too with enough points in my list.

So Saruman just has a whole list of abilities and spells and things that two wraiths just cant equal.
1. Ruin Spells - He is a one man artillery unit. Another ruin caster in tandem with him and... ow! Tremor used right is devastating
2. Epic Ruination. Need to power up high level spells this is great and of course he gets one epic for free. Boost exsicate to strength 3 via this and large goblin orc or even men of rohan formations will be bleeding
3. Epic channeling. Wehn you really need to get the full 3 spells out this is invaluable, esp if yuou want to start with shatter shields before hitting with the other damage dealing spells
4. Spells of command. Light of the valar against flying nazgul is great, as well as Blessing of the Valar.. healing Orcs and uruks!!! Muahahhaha
5 Voice of command. even stopping half the charges is invaluable.
6. Courage 6 and Inspiring Leader (Master) Just helps....
7. Overlord. More marginal but a nice option.
8 3 Might points

These are a list of what he does, but outweigh the two nazgul in tandem. the right two nazgul can be nasty (betrayer/khamul anyone?) but still he can match them and have more abilities that means he is more versatile than they are.

NotLegolasJustTipsy · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:26 pm

I played last night with my misty mountain army a 1000 point game and allied in 2 wraiths. Really helped my goblins, plus with Druzhag I already have a ruin caster, although after reading what you just said, I guess 2 Ruin casters side by side could be cool

Jazlotus · **Joined:** Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:23 pm **Posts:** 170

I play a Misty Mountain army and I think that allying in 2 wraiths to go alongside Druzhag is the best Idea, can really strengthen a goblin army

D0Cdeath · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:54 pm

Your right jazlotus , unless aragorn happens to be present !!

Jazlotus · **Joined:** Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:23 pm **Posts:** 170

Stupid Aragon and his Wraith killing Epic dual!!! No worries Doc I will be like Brave brave brave sir Robin next time haha

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:12 pm

NotLegolasJustTipsy wrote:

I played last night with my misty mountain army a 1000 point game and allied in 2 wraiths. Really helped my goblins, plus with Druzhag I already have a ruin caster, although after reading what you just said, I guess 2 Ruin casters side by side could be cool

good job

, been waiting to hear about that.

NotLegolasJustTipsy · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:06 pm

What would you say is the best use of allies Gothmog? Stick with 2 Wraiths or try Saruman?

Xelee · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:07 pm

I've run both (or all three, given I've run the White too). Usual comments with barbs follow.

Some points:
1. I'd take the Beige version over the White version at current points any day. It is a combination of factors but the key ones are the synergy between the Beige's rules package and the fact he can be the army commander and not an ally.

2. Two Wraiths are of course very good because they range from undercosted to undercosted and grossly over-powered (seen 'army advice' lately?). If you are running an Isengard list based on melee then they are a huge help just through 'Wings of Terror' (shame on all of you still using this spell

) and Pall of Night. Strength from Corruption is a nice Ace in the Hole too.I'd imagine that if you were running them as mastery 3 then the option of potentially getting all three each turn is pretty nice.

3. The Beige (Isengard) Saruman can easily make back his points as a mobile (Epic are mobile, place them well) artillery piece. Added to that, his rules make him a very strong army leader. He also can give hard-hitting melee units like Ferals or Orcs w 2HW a boost before they run headlong to make a hole in the line somewhere. When you consider that he can add rerolls, jump out, shatter shields on a target then hopefully weaken it further with a spell, then the hard-hitters crash in, he allows the Isengard player to really smash around an enemy. If your army relies a lot on interlocking specialist units, this can be pretty problematic to deal with.

I don't think it hurts much that Saruman makes more sense as an Isengard leader than two Wraiths either. In fact, since we are really just talking about stats in a book rather than any complex tactics, you have no doubt already realised that some of what Saruman can do could be acheived via other heroes.

So, inconclusion, I think the real question is not "Saruman or Two Wraiths" but instead "why not take Druzhag, a Wraith (being coy, I'll not say Khamul outright) and Thydan as army leader?" Afterall, that does not cost too much more than two Wraiths

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:46 pm

NotLegolasJustTipsy wrote:

What would you say is the best use of allies Gothmog? Stick with 2 Wraiths or try Saruman?

I would stick to 2 wraiths, partially because of quantity, but also because of Epic Strike. Also, read what Xelee says he gives good advice.

Saruman or 2 Wraiths

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