@ Mor-galad
Gwaihir<Aragorn?

As long as you guys understand that this was only my opinion and I was doing comparisons to some of the lotr profiles when placing where I think these characters should be placed. Zogash's opinion is just as valid as mine and you do bring up some good points and interesting ideas on Morgoth, he was a big powerful wuss in the end.

So I was really basing my decisions on looking at Gandalf the White, Elrond, Gil-galad, Aragorn, and many other heroes' profiles. Maybe Fingolfin does deserve being god-like for his deeds plus many others moved up in bracket, but then again Gandalf the Grey wasn't given an overpowered stat above the Balrog which he clearly defeated.

Anyway I was responding to thompson's post on the point that if everyone is an uber-hero in the first age (and it makes sense that they should be since valor apparently only degenerated in the time after in middle-earth) you'll be left with a broken game unless you up the stats of the core units such as the orcs.

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My Lotr backlog: 305/952[][][][][][][][][][]32% completed
Painting Lineup: Mumakil x2, Rohan Heroes x8, Haradrim, SKoDA

I think that we should just take third age heroes related to the first age, and base the profiles, but not necessarily special rules, so:

Aragorn, descended from the dunedain, who in turn were descended from the Edain, so heroes of men should be roughly based on him,

Elrond, your standard all-rounder elf lord should be based on him, as he was there in the first age. He has combat prowess and magical powers.

Gil-galad: uber-elf-lords should be based on him, as he was there during the first age, and was really powerful. (fingolfin)#

I think that the standard elf sorcerer should e based in galadriel.

Ithink that standard high elves should stay roughly the same

Edain should be dunedain of the north


As far as slmarils go, we should have the same rules for them no matter who has them, like with the ring. Maybe it could be something like: Any model possesing a silmaril makes fate rolls on a 3+. In addition, if a model with a silmaril loses a fight, they can roll a dice: on a 1-3 they lose as normal, on a 4-6, the enemy wins, but cannot attempt to wound.

This is good because about half the time, the silmaril will just effectively prevent any damage being done. the 4-6, blows not struck rule means that its hard to kill a model with a silmaril, without making it impossible.

I think that certain models can have a rule where they really want the silmarils, (sons of feanor), so if they kill the enemy with the silmaril, they gain posssesion of it. This makes it risky enough, as losing it will really change the tide of the battle.

I know this is being super anal but Dunedain were descended from Edain and Eldar. So Numenoreans should be roughly based on him. (@Sacrilege 83) Men like Hurin, Turin, Beren, Tuor, while they did amazing things, were still just men and should probably be closer to Theoden/Eomer. Elros and his sons > lesser men. Generally I would assert again, Thorondor (mamed Morgoth and retrieved the body of) > Fingolfin (wounded Morgoth) > Eldar> The Dunedain > Edain. Hurin would not be among the exceptions. (Turin might be after slaying Glaurung.)

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Woodland Realms: 2382 pts: 18/08/2010

^ Fair enough, I'm not going to disagree with you, especially since my memory is not that clear on the events of the silmarillion as it has been years since I last read it in its entirety.

Selecting which hero should go in which points bracket is very hard to place and it's all one's opinion. First what do you prioritize to decide how strong a character should be? You have their being and race; whether he is a monster, god, man, elf. Their title and status: King, peasant, warrior, wizard. Their accomplishments: Slayed a dragon, severely wounded a god. Also you have the fact whether he/she was an important character or not in the book or a secondary character and Silmarillion ain't no regular novel as it is a history narration. Then you have to make comparisons to third age GamesWorkshop existing profiles so they're not overpowered, that's if you want to play scenarios that has both first age and third age characters in it.

I tried once with others to figure out if there's a formula to GW's profiling, and I came to my own conclusion that there is a bit but also with some intuitive thought on their own part as well. Again I bring up Gandalf the Grey, how do you profile this guy properly who got his ass handed to him by Saruman, but who also casted down a Balrog at the cost of his own life? Is the Balrog overpriced?

Well in the end I'll say this for Thorondor as he is the original Lord of Eagles (I think) his profile should at least be greater than Gwaihir's.

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My Lotr backlog: 305/952[][][][][][][][][][]32% completed
Painting Lineup: Mumakil x2, Rohan Heroes x8, Haradrim, SKoDA

Agreed but you suggested that because Aragorn is 'better' than Gwaihir, it follows logically that Hurin would be ranked higher than Thorondor. I was simply suggesting that Hurin was a normal man comparable to a captain of Rohan while Thorondor, is almost like a Maia. The eagles of the the Third age are a far cry from the eagles in the First age. That was all I was saying.

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Woodland Realms: 2382 pts: 18/08/2010

I think you got the Dunedain thing mixed up there. Dunedain are the Edain that went to Nûmenor after the War of Wrath, no more no less! Only their rulers (Elros and his descendants) were of partially Eldar blood, all other Dunedain were just Men without any Elvish blood at all. And bear in mind that at the time of the wars of Beleriand the Edain were nearly equal in strength to the Elves. It says in the Silmarillion: "The Men of the Three Houses throve and multiplied, but greatest among them was the house of Hador Goldenhead, peer of Elven-lords." Huor and Hurin were the lords of that house, so I'd put them at least on par with Isildur rather than Éomer. Hurin alone killed seventy (!) trolls before being captured! Beren, on his own, hurt Morgoth's armies so much that the price on his head was the same as that for Fingon himself!
Also, Fingolfin was so ridiculously powerful that at his riding to Angband some mistook him for Orome himself! He wounded Morgoth (a Vala!) seven times, no way is Thorondor better than him, Maia or not!
So, by my reckoning it would be: Fingolfin > Thorondor > Fingon, Turgon, Finrod, Turin > Hurin, Huor, Beren > Eldar, Tuor >= Edain = Dunedain

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Rohan - as it should have been. A house rule project.

That reasoning is sound to me.

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Woodland Realms: 2382 pts: 18/08/2010

Feanor could have some sort of rage special rule because of the simirils

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It comes in pints? I'm getting one!

The thing with First Age rules is that the most powerful heros (like Gil-Galad) in the normal game, weren't very powerful at all compared to those that were alive in the First Age. Even Sauron and Durin's Bane had lost a significant amount of power by the 3rd Age. You would either need to come up with completely new profiles for every model, or give the 1st Age characters insane special rules to make them nigh unbeatable, throwing off the game mechanics. Most of the profiles that I've seen here are incredibly under powered. Luthien put Morgoth (THE Dark Lord) to sleep by singing to him (basically immobilising him in game terms), Fingolfin wounded Morgoth 7 times before getting stepped on, and the list goes on about the uber-ness of all the heroes. So, the only way to really do it, would be to kinda reset all of the rules, and come up with a completely new rulebook that only applies to the 1st age.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Remember Durin's Bane is not a name (sorry but just seeing it on the page is beginning to get at me) its an alias though. Also, he had not slain Durin in the 1st Age, so it is debunct.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

In that case, we would have nothing else to call him, Balrog of Moria wouldn't work, but anyways, that's not the point and quit SAYING IT'S NOT HIS NAME.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

In the First Age there is no need to give a name to any Balrog except Gothmog. And I will quit saying its not his name if you write 'Durin's bane' in inverted commas or something.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

If something that small is getting at you, perhaps you need to take a break and do something else...maybe read a history of rose horticulture, or memorize the taxonomy of swallows (European, or African...)

I don't think there's really anything to support the idea that characters who survived the First Age were so much weaker than other First Age heroes that you would have to start with a clean slate. Characters like Fingolfin, Turgon, and Thingol can probably be considered more powerful than (or at the very least as powerful as) some of the First Age elves we already have, but not so much more powerful that they couldn't be made balanced in the game.

Part of it is the way the stories are written (The Silmarillion is much more mythological in nature), but a big part of it is also just that GW tones some heroes down for the purposes of keeping them balanced and manageable in a relatively small-scale game. Gandalf and Glorfindel both brought down a Balrog in the stories, but you rarely hear the complaint that they can't go toe-to-toe with one in the game.

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Well, that's my 2 cents.

There isn't a game mechanic that allows both Gandalf/Glorfindel and a Balrog to die at the same time. What I mean is that Gil-Galad was the greatest warrior of the Second Age, that's why he had 9 fight, but is no where near as powerful as say Fingolfin. So you either just give Fingolfin 10 fight, which wouldn't do it justice cause then you would have a whole slew of fight 10 characters, or you just start over. Gandalf in the game makes sense, very powerful, but not so much that he can go toe to toe with Sauron, because in the books he was sent as a supporter, not a warrior. I think that when he fought Durin's Bane, he was allowed to unleash his full power as a Maia, allowing him to kill a (weakened) Durin's Bane.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Arg! Gandalf was a Maiar and so of course he could defeat The Balrog of Moria who was also a Maiar, the fight should've been pretty balanced. Glorfindel was an Elf Lord, and in the First Age they were powerful too.

PS It still gets me Mstr Draugluin.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

True, but they don't need to die at the same time, in SBG it's not even a close call. Throw Glorfindel against a Balrog and he's going to die, there's almost no chance of him winning. That's what I'm getting at.


Says who? It's not like there was a duel with wooden swords between Fingolfin and Gil-Galad.


So suppose he is vastly more powerful than Gil-Galad - why not F10 for Fingolfin? I'd say it does him justice, although really when you get right down to it F10 or F9 almost makes no difference, both are still going to be higher than the vast majority of opponents they might face. Besides, what "slew of other characters" would necessitate a F10? Probably Morgoth and Feanor, maybe one or two other elf lords. Really, though, it's not so terribly important that they can best each other in combat, as the elves probably wouldn't really be fighting each other anyways.

Fight value isn't the be-all-end-all of who's more powerful. M/W/F, number of attacks, strength, special rules - all of these things can have as much or more to do with how good a character is in combat.

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Well, that's my 2 cents.

If first age characters are going to be made, why not just have them be similar profiles to already existing powerful third age heroes or have them be slightly more powerful? Just for the sake of keeping the SBG mechanics functioning.

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My Lotr backlog: 305/952[][][][][][][][][][]32% completed
Painting Lineup: Mumakil x2, Rohan Heroes x8, Haradrim, SKoDA

Wonder how powerful the Ainur would be

Insane. Considering how much more powerful they were then the Balrogs and Sauron, they would be end all characters.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.