I take it there won't be any pricing changes. The rules should take care of the worst problems in any case.

So, if it seems like we are momentarily out of new ideas, how about Xelee / Slythar / Me / Anyone wraps up the rules into two nice packages, one for the "less is more" crowd, and one for the "more is more" crowd. Would be handy if someone whipped up a tournament with these rules, then we could present these as "X tournament rules" and gain credibility like ETC! Heh, just kidding. But still, it would be handy.

Hi Glabro, mine are already in a package in the OP (sized in normal text, they *should* fit one A4 page), and on my blog. A fair few people have been trying them but I don't think we will get much more on them here as it is just too confusing with multiple versions being discussed in the same thread.

I'll just add at this stage, for people looking for better balanced rulesets than GW offers, that a few people have converted the excellent Impetus rules (http://www.dadiepiombo.com/impetus2.html) to play War of the RIng. I've been playing Impetus a bit recently (there is a free version of the basic rules, which are good in themselves: http://www.dadiepiombo.com/basic2.html), and it is far and away the best set of Ancients rules I have ever used. The games are fast moving but tactically deep, planning matters, and the units are properly balanced. The last three are also features of Fields of Glory but you definitely couldn't say that game is fast moving!

My personal feeling is that I enjoy WOTR (with or without changes) for what it is, but if I wanted a properly balanced game I would go to a system like Impetus as a base.

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The links don't seem to be working, but yes, I've heard of Impetus - it's something to look at. Do the links refer to the basic impetus game or the WOTR conversion?

However, War of the Ring has the advantage of being a recognized almost-core game from GW, and has a large player base. That's why I'm keen on finding a est of rules that would be relatively easy for the greater gaming community to accept, or at least would be easily digestible and acceptable "before the game".

The links work when I click on them. First link is to the description for the full version. Second takes you to the basic version. Basic lacks a lot of the 'command and control' pf the full version (reactions, opportunity, discipline, etc etc) but is a good game in its own right - at about the detail level of WOTR. However, the full version doesn't actually take longer to play and I feel command and control is at the core of a proper wargame, so I much prefer it. You seem to want a set of core rules that really work (without being all grognardy like some sets) and I recommend this - it benefits greatly from having not been developed by the core set of US/UK ancients gamers!

I think the issue with trying to leverage WOTR as 'an established rules set' is that 1. You are trying to modify RAW quite a bit, which tends to undo that. For example, I'm umpiring NATCON for this system, and can get most of those I play to use houserules... but there is not question that it will be RAW for that comp - many wouldn't be happy with it otherwise. That is so even though I'd propose far more limited changes. 2. WOTR doesn't seem to be nearly as prevalent as other games. There are plenty of players locally, but that appears to be atypical.

I'm trying to seed the thought in the LGS owner's mind (he loves to play ancients, but needs to think about selling it to others too) that with 28mm plastics these days, new players can grab 2-3 boxes, or one of the army boxes that Warlord do,and have a complete army for something like Impetus. Increasingly, many GW players seem to have a few of these anyway. One of my mates got all evangelical about Impetus with his GW playing mates - he discovered that most of them already had 1-2 complete 28mm historical armies as well for WAB etc. They had just never got the chance to play.

Just to avoid completely derailing my own topic: for anyone else on this thread, a set of the houserules are in the OP and I'd also check out Blackmist's Polish Tournament thread in the events section, that tournament has quite a lot of restrictions and might be another useful guide. I don't think it stops some of the things I think are the biggest issue, but is pretty good.

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I changed a few houserules. I got rid of the 1's always miss and put that detail with Epic Rampage. Having 1's always miss was too much micromanaging for every set of rules that needed 1's to re-roll. Its an odd occurrence at any rate.

Changed Exiting a Terrain Feature: Units with Pathfinder (Master) or Spirit Walk can charge out of defensive terrain. Follow the rules for Exiting a Terrain Feature then roll to charge as normal. A failed charge means they remain outside of the terrain.
- This was discussed at length and I think this is an easy set of rules to follow.

Added, All formations are considered to have 1-Handed Weapons aswell as the rest of their equipment.
- Just a simple rule to end any arguments about equipment.

Added Spirit Walk: While in Spirit form, they cannot be shot at and do not block line of sight. This means you can shoot right through them if you like, good or evil.
- This adds a dimension I thought was needed for Spirit formations.

Removed rules for Herioc Shot, Epic Charge.
- With the bonuses doubled I think the might is justified.

Changed Epic Strike: Its just +2 fight. The timing is default.
- I didn't want more rules than needed.

Added, If Command Options are not listed for the formation then they cannot have an Epic Hero join them.
- This was debated plenty of times so I just made a houserule to reflect how I feel about it.

Added Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast can lead any faction. The cost is still allocated as an ally though.
- I think the Wizards should be able to lead a faction on their own. They can be quite useful versus the monsters and spirits they may face.

Added Winged Nazgul's can be used in all evil armies that have Wraiths
- A technicality in my books which should of been included. Its certainly nice to have the Witchking leading an Angmar army on Fellbeast.

Removed, Rohan rules for Charging. It doesn't affect much.

Removed Ringwraiths Spell mastery. Returned to original value.

Changed Khamul the Easterling: Range decreased to 6". Reflected hits can only be directed at Infantry.
- Reduced range makes it not as overpowered. The Reflected hits was killer on Calvary or Monsters.

Changed, The Betrayer: Betrayer can reroll 1's and 2's.

Removed rules for Sauron. The improvements for Spirit Formations should be enough.

Added Druzhag: Summon Beasts costs 2 might.

I overhauled spells. That's why I gave the Ringwraiths their spell mastery back.

Magic
Will of Iron: On a 3 or more the spell is resisted.
All spells that indicate 'from the caster' is now chosen from any point in the caster's company.
Tremor: Cannot effect flying creatures. Cannot be cast while in Defensible Terrain.

Call Winds/Guide Arrows: These spells are combined as one spell
- I thought this made sense. If you don't want the other affect, don't use it.

Wings of Terror: Replaced with, Move and Charge distance increased by 2". On a 6 this is doubled to 4".
- On Infantry its not a huge deal anymore. Excellent for Winged Nazgul.

Pall of Night: On a 2 to 5 the targeted formations charge stalls on a roll of 1 to 3 instead of a 1. On a 6 they cannot charge.
- Banners are more important if you are facing Wraiths. Its still useful just not guaranteed.

Strength from Corruption: Only affects Infantry.

I still have problems with balancing Fight Value. That's an ongoing thing. Having your Fight reduced to zero can be devastating so courage has much more value.

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http://drinkingwotr.blogspot.com/ - Links to my CrAzY House Rules, Games and 'poor man's' terrain.

This thread is really useful, having only been playing since Christmas and found many of the issues already raised on here. A couple of suggestions which I dont think have appeared before:
Guide Arrows We played as +1 to shoot value and +1 on To Hit Chart. It was pretty useful without being overwhelming.
Should heavy infantry have less Move? I dont know if it would make much difference.
Has anyone used spellcasters for other good armies. We gave Gondor a spellcaster with spells of command and otherwise based on the Elven Stormcaller and it seemed to work OK.

Guide Arrows sounds much better now and I think the Take Aim abilities should be changed to match that (after all, the abosulte maximum this does is add 8 extra shots because it's +2 shots per company and they have a maximum of 4 companies. Not worth a point of Might).
Difficult to implement this and I don't think there's any real benefit. If you were to do this, have it be along the lines of D6+ (including shield), gets -1M, unless you're a Dwarf (and various other exceptions, such as Mithril Armour or a Dragon). I wouldn't use this rule, but that's a suggestion for application.
To be honest, I don't see the value of the unnamed spellcasters because they're too expensive for what they do (100 points to get two-four spells off a game and then get Heroic/Epic Duelled and killed, whilst taking down a huge chunk of their own formation).

I really don't think Heavy infantry need to be slower - is there a rationale for this? I would be happier with them being more costly.

Guide arrows / take aim probably do need a boost. I saw a suggestion somewhere that they grant rerolled 1s and 2s (and rerolled everything on 6s), and that didn't seem the worst idea ever. Other abilities in the game already give this.

Given my usual phobias though, I shudder at the though of Vrashnu's talons posessing this - I would always have a wilderness caster on hand to fend off the nightmares.

Anyway, is it me, or does there seem to be an inordinate amount of housrule discussion going on here (and at Warseer) recently. There almost seems to be more of that than RAW based talk!

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Here's one you might consider trying - Bring back "will points" & use them for WOTR.

Each Level a Spellcaster has entitles them to d? will points. Roll before the battle starts - (An averge dice might work best for this 2,3,3,4,4,5) this will give a Lvl 1 SC 2-5 (most likely 3-4) Will, Lvl 2 4-10 (most likely 6-8) & Lvl 3 6-15 (most likely 9-12). Each spell costs 1 WP to cast and casters can cast a number of spells up to & including their lvl each turn - so keep the focus test. So 3 for lvl 3 etc, so keep the focus rolls - you only use a WP if the spell is cast). A Spell caster could also use will or might for "Will of Iron" rolls instead of Might (and adjust if desired).

You'd just record it like you would have for SBG.

Of course this would affect Elves the most.

Thoughts?

You should make the other rules like Khamuls (Cirdan and Malbeth) work on a 5+. It actually makes so much more sense to have the good guys have that kind of rule than a Nazgul.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Hi Draugluin,

I don't disagree. However, one of my primary goals is to keep things as short and 'tight' as possible. So one of the practices I have adopted is to not address everything and focus on a limited number of ways to smooth things out overall. Where I have addressed individual heroes, it has been because you have to do so because certain heroes pop up a lot for some (I'm picking lack of faith in their own ability to win a fair fight ) reason....

So I feel a little constrained by the pragmatic reality that houserules have to adapt an already printed book. If I were rewriting the book, I'd make that change in a second!

Cheers

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

I guess that makes sense, but I completely agree about the mastery level of 2 for the Nazgul.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

My recent experiences have led me to think that doesn't go far enough.

I would suggest that another key change (WOI already dispels Pall of night on a 3+ if houseruled) would be to alter Wings of Terror to something like:Move as if you had a musician, auto pass doubling rolls and re-roll charge rollS." I think that would make Darkness casters much more balanced in that the ability to give infantry 12"-24" move and charge like flying monsters leads to silly outcomes.

I resisted the idea of changing spells for a long time, though perhaps new spell lists wouldn't be any more intrusive than spell users always looking up the quick ref? However, I've now put using any Darkness spells in the category of being so cheap that I will only do it when I really really want to win!

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

Maybe add something that all Darkness casters (with the exception of the Legendary formations with access to them) that every spell that is cast, the casters fomration takes D3 (maybe d6 for certain ones) hits to represent him sucking the life out of his followers fur use in his spell.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Interesting idea, however I could see a problem coming up with the Gorgoroth Horde Battlehost. If someone has 12C's (or more), they can sacrifice enough to support at least three Ringwraiths while still being a significant combat threat and that's going to still be a little overly powerful.

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- My miniature gaming blog, sorry for lack of LOTR content right now.

The orc hordes are supposed to be endless, so even if you do suck the life out of a good number of them, there will still be more, so at least thematicalls it would still work. I've also been thinking to maybe restrict certain spells to epic heroes, like black dart and black breath. There's no way an orc shaman should be able to do either of those.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

I have but one comment at the moment. Why stop formations that don't have command option from having epic heroes? How exactly is the Spirit legions of Angmar battlehost supposed to work if you can't put the Ringwraiths in the Spectres?

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

I was thinking that since I've heard that Hard to Kill and Very Hard to Kill are neither, both tables get a -1 when they are rolled. So you have a 2/3 chance of wounding a troll the first time you roll on it, and you only have a 1/2 chance of wounding Glorfindel the first time you roll on the chart. The Extremely and Ridiculously Hard to Kill tables look good enough.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

By this you mean -1 if its H2K and -2 if its VH2K? I like it.

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Yes.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.