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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:13 pm 
Elven Elder
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Well fght 5 is a bit meh really, almost useless against elves, dwarves and other fight 4+ enemies, the trhere's the ratre to common, which you don't always need

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:16 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Surely tho that's why using him is good, to be able to use others S / F values, making your crappy fight 2 orcs better
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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:20 pm 
Elven Elder
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NotLegolasJustTipsy wrote:
Surely tho that's why using him is good, to be able to use others S / F values, making your crappy fight 2 orcs better


Firstly Mordor is not MM, fight 3 is as low as they get, secondly, the DM is not the KoU, its fight not strength, and he can only give them fight 5, all it does is either give you an extra attak or two or deny your opponant the same thing. I had considered using him in some Morannons, but whatever you put in them can't make 'em dreadful.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:27 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Sorry Gothmog I'm not understanding what your saying.x
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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:27 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Ahhh sorry your talking about the Dark Marshall. Sorry my bad
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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:34 pm 
Elven Warrior
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NotLegolasJustTipsy wrote:
But surely you don't just use him for his courage?

It's not that he has no use when you have a lot of other heroes - any of the 125 pt Wraiths is a stupidly good deal even without their special rules. However, that doesn't stop people still trying to get the most they can out of their Wraiths.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:42 pm 
Elven Warrior
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GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Ok then, one or two of them are a little more ambiguous, but I would say this:
1st Khamul (obvious reasons, he can turn a serious defeat into an overwhelming victory)
2nd The Betrayer (seriousy deadly, but no protection hence 2 and not 1)
3rd The Knight of Umbar (again powerful, but more circumstancial than KE and BT as it relies on enemies)
4th The Dwimmerlaik (not overwhelming on its own, abuse when used in cpnjuction with Gothmog, can be powerful)
5th The Tainted (helps with spells,, spirits, cavalry and bezerkers, he's easier to describe as useful rather tghan powerful
6th The Dark Marshal (some people put him above the Tainted, because his inspiring leader is useful, and he can make MKs common, however there's plenty of cheap high courage hers, fight value is circumstansual, and there are plenty of commons)
7th The Shadow Lord (definately not very powerful, useful against crossbows etc, but archery in general isnt too powerful, if it was, he'd be much higher, good at protecting low defence high cost troops though)
8th The Witch-king (again, cos of his high cost many people put him last, hes rules aren't the best and he's costs a lot more, however 3 might alone makes him okish, and his rule is useful to magic snipers)
9th The Undying (neither part of his rules is partiicularly good, of the cheaper wraiths, he is the most balanced pts wies, as his rules are also veery circumstantial, a lot of good armies go without magic, so itt often is completely pointless)


Is Khamul best placed in a real low defence formation? So would he be better in just a formation of basic Goblins instead of say Prowlers or Gundabad blackshields?
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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:43 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Also whats the best formation to put the Betrayer and The knight of Umbar?
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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:54 pm 
Elven Elder
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The Betrayer would be good in an archery formation as they don't need that much protection, but really benefit from his rule. Any unit with crossbows benefits even more because they have a higher chance to hit anyway. If you put him and Amdur in a large formation of haradrim and cast Strength from Corruption on them, then call Epic Rampage, they'll most likely cut through anything in the game with little to no problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:01 pm 
Elven Elder
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GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Ok then, one or two of them are a little more ambiguous, but I would say this:
1st Khamul (obvious reasons, he can turn a serious defeat into an overwhelming victory)
2nd The Betrayer (seriousy deadly, but no protection hence 2 and not 1)
3rd The Knight of Umbar (again powerful, but more circumstancial than KE and BT as it relies on enemies)
4th The Dwimmerlaik (not overwhelming on its own, abuse when used in cpnjuction with Gothmog, can be powerful)
5th The Tainted (helps with spells,, spirits, cavalry and bezerkers, he's easier to describe as useful rather tghan powerful
6th The Dark Marshal (some people put him above the Tainted, because his inspiring leader is useful, and he can make MKs common, however there's plenty of cheap high courage hers, fight value is circumstansual, and there are plenty of commons)
7th The Shadow Lord (definately not very powerful, useful against crossbows etc, but archery in general isnt too powerful, if it was, he'd be much higher, good at protecting low defence high cost troops though)
8th The Witch-king (again, cos of his high cost many people put him last, hes rules aren't the best and he's costs a lot more, however 3 might alone makes him okish, and his rule is useful to magic snipers)
9th The Undying (neither part of his rules is partiicularly good, of the cheaper wraiths, he is the most balanced pts wies, as his rules are also veery circumstantial, a lot of good armies go without magic, so itt often is completely pointless)


I would place the DM higher than the Tainted (unless you're playing as Angmar) especially in smaller games. If you don't have that many epics, then you can really benefit from his high fight/courage. You can also really benefit from having some of the best cavalry on the side of evil count as commons. The Undying should be higher just because he can be amazing against Elf armies. As it is, they are all overpowered. If they had Mastery levels of 2, then you upgrade the WK for 75 pts and he is upgraded to mastery level 3, they would not only still be amazing, but they would actually make sense with what was in the book and the WK would jump up on the list by a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:43 pm 
Elven Warrior
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So Khamul, is he best in your lowest defence formation?
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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:33 pm 
Elven Elder
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When within range for his ability to reflect hits onto enemy formations, sure. If you're far away though, I would leave him in a high defence formation, then switch him into your low defence formation once in range.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:35 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Yeah that makes sense, Thanx
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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:36 pm 
Elven Warrior
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What's the best way to utilise the Knight of Umbar?
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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:40 pm 
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NotLegolasJustTipsy wrote:
So Khamul, is he best in your lowest defence formation?


Someone more experienced with him may disagree with me, but Khamul is better used with a med-to-high defense formation IMO. Yes he bounces back 1/3 of all wounds on your formation, but it's better to still survive the onslaught than deflect massive amounts of casualties back but still perish. If a cavalry formation slams into your cheap low-defense troops with lances couched, they may be able to dish out so many wounds that even with your bounce-back they wipe out your unit before you can counter. Also, putting Khamul in a large formation of low-defense troops (not the Gorgoroth Horde mind you) is just begging to have that unit hammered with warmachine and archery fire before it gets within range. Now a better defense unit of infantry can survive the initial calvary charge and with Khamul's help cause enough to destroy the cavalry. :sad:

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:11 pm 
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As I just said 6 days ago in response to this very same question from you NotLegolasJustTipsy,

ForgottenLore wrote:
Draugluin wrote:
Khamul in a large formation,

Khamul in a large CHEAP formation.

He does considerably less for you in a formation of 6 companies of Uruk Hai or Easterling Pikemen than he does in with common orcs that are less than half the price.

Khamul is most useful when he is redirecting hits from his formation onto troops that are more expensive. If he is bouncing 1/3 hits on your 35 point Uruk Hai but has to put them onto 15 point goblins that is nice and all, then for every 70 points of your Uruk-Hai that your opponent kills, Khamul kills 15 points of Goblins. Compare to putting him in with 15 point orcs and being able to redirect 1/3 of hits onto Uruk Hai. For every 30 points of orcs your opponent kills, Khamul kills 35 points of Uruk-Hai. In that circumstance it actually becomes better for your opponent to avoid Khamul's formation entirely rather than attack and kill more of himself than the enemy.
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 Post subject: Re: Epic Heroes and Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:17 pm 
Elven Elder
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Draugluin wrote:
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Ok then, one or two of them are a little more ambiguous, but I would say this:
1st Khamul (obvious reasons, he can turn a serious defeat into an overwhelming victory)
2nd The Betrayer (seriousy deadly, but no protection hence 2 and not 1)
3rd The Knight of Umbar (again powerful, but more circumstancial than KE and BT as it relies on enemies)
4th The Dwimmerlaik (not overwhelming on its own, abuse when used in cpnjuction with Gothmog, can be powerful)
5th The Tainted (helps with spells,, spirits, cavalry and bezerkers, he's easier to describe as useful rather tghan powerful
6th The Dark Marshal (some people put him above the Tainted, because his inspiring leader is useful, and he can make MKs common, however there's plenty of cheap high courage hers, fight value is circumstansual, and there are plenty of commons)
7th The Shadow Lord (definately not very powerful, useful against crossbows etc, but archery in general isnt too powerful, if it was, he'd be much higher, good at protecting low defence high cost troops though)
8th The Witch-king (again, cos of his high cost many people put him last, hes rules aren't the best and he's costs a lot more, however 3 might alone makes him okish, and his rule is useful to magic snipers)
9th The Undying (neither part of his rules is partiicularly good, of the cheaper wraiths, he is the most balanced pts wies, as his rules are also veery circumstantial, a lot of good armies go without magic, so itt often is completely pointless)


I would place the DM higher than the Tainted (unless you're playing as Angmar) especially in smaller games. If you don't have that many epics, then you can really benefit from his high fight/courage. You can also really benefit from having some of the best cavalry on the side of evil count as commons. The Undying should be higher just because he can be amazing against Elf armies. As it is, they are all overpowered. If they had Mastery levels of 2, then you upgrade the WK for 75 pts and he is upgraded to mastery level 3, they would not only still be amazing, but they would actually make sense with what was in the book and the WK would jump up on the list by a lot.


The Undying should not reall be higher, as you say he's good against one list out of 4, lots of armies have no magic. Abut the Tainted and the Dark Marshal, the Tainted can be useful for Mordor too, particularly if you have Black Guard and/or cavalry, all of which you want to get the charge of as he makes it easier for enemies to fail courage tests and thus not be able to charge, whereas the Dark Marshal's usefulness is immediately lowered by multiple wraiths.

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