While it's tempting to blow my new vote to cancel that out, I'll just respond (which I am sure you knew was coming ) and then spend my vote on IMO a better target.

Angmar, have a very wide range of options - Barbarians, spirits, monsters, monstrous spirits, Wraiths and orcs. Their mainstay units are 30pt def 4(6) fight 4 warriors with the Berserker rule, that is one of the best heavy infantry in the game and the only heavy infantry that IMO surpass them are rare choices. These units can have characters in them. Gulavar is not as good as Buhrdur, this is true. However, a more reasonable way to put that is that Buhrdur is an incredibly good deal. The Tainted and Dwimmerlaik both have very useful special rules (and I do know what they are) in terms of synergy with the Angmar army and, let's face it, all the 125pt Ringwraiths are a steal. It's just that with Khamul out there still being used as a crutch, other very good characters get over-shadowed. I find them excellent value even using my house-rule to run them at mastery 2. The Witch-King compares well with most other 200pt spellcasters. He is not quite as good as Galadriel or Gandalf, but they are the top-tier in that points range and he is much better in a duel. He has the added advantage that I can take him RAW with a clear conscience I still only take him once I have used up my other two Wraith choices first though.

I'm giving my vote to the Elves. -1

Their perks are a slightly higher mobility, high courage, terror, and high fight. Their mobility is definitely a good perk, as is high courage. High fight however is just a joke. Something like 2HW (or berserkers on the charge etc) double lethality most of the time where a +1 increase in fight adds but a single dice to the company's attacks, and they could be denied that increase in some situations. Both seem to be costed similarily. Elves do have some good heroes but just do not get the sheer cheapness (Thranduil excepted) of really good characters that the evil lists get, so cannot leverage this in the same way. So basically we have a smaller, faster, terror causing list that can't dish damage or take it to the level of the other lists out there (if they are properly composed).

So:

Gondor - 8
Rohan - 7
Elves - 5 (-1)
Dwarves - 8
Mordor - 1st
Isenguard - 5
Moria - 6
Fallen realms - 6
Angmar - 4

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

^Elves should be at 6. My vote for them wasn't counted about halfway down the previous page.

Gondor - 8
Rohan - 7
Elves - 6
Dwarves - 9 (+1)
Mordor - 1st
Isenguard - 5
Moria - 6
Fallen realms - 6
Angmar - 4

Here's what I like about Dwarves. High Defense, Dwarf Ballista, some bane troops, 2 Handed axes galore, Thrown at Strength 4, Shieldbearers, Vault Wardens, all are Stalwart, high courage, Hero's with Rampage, noob friendly, cheap to collect. Its not like "What am I going to do to stop you?" it's "What are you going to do to stop the Dwarves?"

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http://drinkingwotr.blogspot.com/ - Links to my CrAzY House Rules, Games and 'poor man's' terrain.

that sais it all cheap in money and points(4 wat they are) reliable and are easy to play with(charge whilst shootin easiest tactics ever and r pretty effective)

I think that Stalwart is a bit of a poor armywide special rule, personally. Unless you face lots of artillery and are always in blocks larger than Dwarfs should be in, anyway.

I find shooting to be ridiculously ineffective in WotR, but that's just me. Elves get Terror, which (against low-Courage opponents, like Evil armies, in particular) can increase the number of attacks per company by a minimum of 5 (3 or 4 companies is an extra 15-20 attacks) and Dwarfs simply don't get pushed back when you finish off a company (so their rule is only effective when some of their number die), which is merely a vague attempt at countering the lower movement of Dwarfs.

I think I'd rather have the 5pts/company, but that's just me

This all very interesting: Xelee and Hashut's Blessing both gave pretty convincing arguments for which army they believe is worst (Elves and Angmar, respectively), and Slythar has also argued strongly for Dwarves. I'm predicting Dwarves to get second in the next few posts, and Gondor to follow in third.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

It is interesting to see the different takes.

As an aside, it was a poster on this forum starting the "what is the most competitive army" thread that clued me into Angmar. Everyone always said they were the worst army out there, but the thread actually made me look at their list...

It is still wierd to see Rohan on 7 (and Elves would have been, too) while Fallen Realms remain on 6. Shows things are not a foregone conclusion eh?

FWIW Hashut's Blessing, I would be even less happy to pay 5pts for Stalwart than I would be to pay 5pts for a +1 boost to fight, and that is saying something. Dwarven baseline defense is high though, and that matters in this game. Whether it matter as much as almost twice their number in MT warriors is dubious, but people are promoting Dwarves for starting players. It's not like any of the older kits are difficult to get cheaply and in numbers though.

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

I agree that it's probably better to have Stalwart than +1F, but with that high defence, they take little damage from shooting (even the rangers only took 2 casualties from 4 companies of Elves at close range, full strength). I think Defence matters MUCH more in SBG, at least for combat. In regards to shooting, any defence is good enough, lol (except against maybe Crossbows and sometimes throwing weapons).

I also agree that it seems odd Rohan are on 7, whilst FR are on 6, lol.

i dont think this form is that useful as ppl would be a bit more biased toward their army, and because wotr armies are ment to be looked at with allies in mind. (now that ive said that i can continue)

For me I would give +1 to MM (but dont count it yet, i havent played WOTR a whole lot) because: 1 everything is so freeking fast (the slowest are the trolls). 2 just about everything has pathfinders master, so you cant slow the freeking fast army. 3. even with the low courage, its easy to over come (drum + durburz... everyone now has C6). 4. even though they only have average armor, they get so many troops that it doesn't matter. 5. There are so many hard hitters (stone giant, cave drake, dragon, balrog, really cheap trolls, spiders (that can be summoned as well mind you)) 6. armor is not a problem as its so easy to get spells of ruin (shatter shields, take that vault wardens!), dragon/balorg/druzhag/shaman all these have them, and the first 2 (particularly the dragon for his movement and charge bonus) can make a mess regardless of their defense. 7. Just about all the common choices has prowlers, as well as some rare 7.5 this is really just my bias, but the dragon deserves an honorable mention for me, because hes flying and a hero (at the double), he can get on anyone's flanks in turn 1 and combined with his magic he'll destroy them by turn 2 (done this to large blocks or uruks, they never had a chance to even run)

the only thing I'm disappointed in is the lack of ambushers (only the broodlings has it). which is weird, i thought that the spider queen/spiders/wargs/ and in particular prowlers should have it.


Also, the book said that there were 4 main armies for good and for evil, then 1 list for each that are not ment to be an army by themselves(pg 85) : "The other two factions are not so much organized groups , buy largely unaligned forces that can sometimes be persuaded to join in the fray a the behest of one side or the other" so angmar and fallen realms cant really be compared to the other ones.

I'm lowering elves to 5 again. They just aren't good. And I should know because I play them.

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

Ok, so we are now on:

Gondor - 8
Rohan - 7
Elves - 5
Dwarves - 9 (+1)
Mordor - 1st
Isenguard - 5
Moria - 6
Fallen realms - 6
Angmar - 4

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

Well, without the (+1) on the Dwarves. I'm surprised Rohan is still higher than Moria and Fallen Realms. Perhaps Rohan players are more "patriotic". And angmar isn't that bad, elves are worse IMHO.

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

Damning Angmar with faint praise...

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

Gondor - 8
Rohan - 7
Elves - 5
Dwarves - 9
Mordor - 1st
Isenguard - 6
Moria - 6
Fallen realms - 6
Angmar - 4

isengard up one. they have great base troops. and good elites. they also have crossbows, and saruman.

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When Isengard marches to war their is no stopping them.

+1 To the Dwarves give me a Dwarvish Battle group and just watch how far the enemies falls.

so rohan 7
elves 5
dwarves 2cnd
morder 1st
isenguard 6
moria 6
fallen realms 6
angmar 4
i think im right

You've forgotten Gondor

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We must forgive our enemies...
But not before they are hanged

Gondor - 8
Rohan - 7
Elves - 5
Dwarves - 2nd
Mordor - 1st
Isengard - 6
Moria - 6
Fallen Realms - 6
Angmar - 4

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

woops