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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:05 pm 
Elven Warrior
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ukfreddybear wrote:
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but why is nearly every other company's prices a lot lower than GW?


Because other companies don't have the same overheads to pay. Think how many stores GW rent across the world, with utilities bills to pay for each. Each store has maybe 3 or 4 employees all on a salary. Other companies can afford to take a smaller profit margin because they have none of that to budget for and worry about.

If GW closed every single store and fired all their retail staff then their outgoings would be massively reduced so the minis could be cheaper. But would we really want that?

Well...all the GW stores around me have already closed anyway...so... :wink:
I don't understand, these ridiculously high prices are completely justified? I see that answer before me, but I dare not believe or accept it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:49 pm 
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it is to an extent and alot of other companys dont manufacture there own moulds alot of it its just bought in from a company specialising in moulds and gw minis laterly are some of the cleanest most detailed they ever done as there now takining laser scans of scultpts and then touching them up on cpu before haveing basicly an industrial tatoo gun chisel the mould out of aluminium its very expensive to start up and other companys havent started using the new tech yet cus of the cost gw minis will begin to decline in price soon enough once the minis have paid for there own mould and gw is back macking profit and the minis are only going to get more and more detailed if u need to justify it look at how expensive forgeworld stuff is thats cus they have always used these types of moulds for resin itsa only recently tht they can b used for plastics to with the same level of detail
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:39 pm 
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ukfreddybear wrote:
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but why is nearly every other company's prices a lot lower than GW?


Because other companies don't have the same overheads to pay. Think how many stores GW rent across the world, with utilities bills to pay for each. Each store has maybe 3 or 4 employees all on a salary. Other companies can afford to take a smaller profit margin because they have none of that to budget for and worry about.

If GW closed every single store and fired all their retail staff then their outgoings would be massively reduced so the minis could be cheaper. But would we really want that?


I would have assumed that most GW stores are franchises with each franchisee responsible for the profitable operation of the store and paying some form of annual fee to GW, just a guess so I could be wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:49 pm 
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gw is a franchise yes but as explained no other company sells the number of miniatures that gw does other companys can cope with using cheaper moulding techniques gw have pushed forward with what they can do and setup costs are expensive the prices of minis in the long run will come down over the next couple years ive no doubt once all the new kit is paid for and gw no longer owe money on the machinery
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:40 pm 
Elven Warrior
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I guess the bottom line is that if there is a problem then we can complain to GW about it, but they won't really do much. If there is that much of a moeny issue then you would stop the hobby altogether, so I guess it can't be that bad. I have put up with these prices for lots of years, you just have to be careful not to overspend and think before you buy.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:32 pm 
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Ok, I can at least shed some light on the costs involved. Speaking as a model manufacturer I have used/do use or at least know the ins and outs of all the processes they use to make their minis. Suffice it to say that the cost of the material, white metal and plastic, is relatively low. Same goes for packaging. This also is true for FW's resin (I use the same stuff on a daily basis.)
As UkFreddyBear pointed out very astutely, it is the overhead costs (wages, bills, insurance etc etc) that keep GW's prices high, not the direct costs (materials etc.) GW have massively larger overhead costs than most smaller ops, simply because they are a bigger operation. Its a pretty basic law of business that as you get bigger, your overhead costs grow exponentially, not linearly. At the same time your direct costs will come down as your manufacturing becomes more automated and you can use cheap materials in huge quanities.

Maybe the prices could be a bit lower, but I don't think theyt could eat into their profit margins much before they seriously harmed their growth. Their gross profit (basically how much you make once you deduct materials and direct costs) is probably very large. They charge £20 for a squad box but if you break down the actual costs of whats in the box and the box itself you are probably looking at a profit of £17 at the very least. However, GW's net profit (what you make after paying all the other costs like your staff) is comparably low (£9m in 2009 from £120m ish total sales.) So be under no illusions, GW's top brass are not laughing at us and bathing in money. Smiling and rubbing themselves with it, maybe, but they aren't turning a profit hand over fist. They seem to re-invest a heck of alot of their profits aswell, which means better products for us.

senoja wrote:
if u need to justify it look at how expensive forgeworld stuff is thats cus they have always used these types of moulds for resin itsa only recently tht they can b used for plastics to with the same level of detail


I'm sorry but that is not correct. Plastic injection moulding is very different to sillicone moulding. You got the bit about the giant tatoo machine right, the negative (or cavity as we call it) of the shape that will be cast is cut into steel using a milling machine and a pantograph or more recently a CNC computer controlled mill. This process takes literally weeks and is THE most expensive way to make anything. The moudling costs associated with making vulcanised rubber molds for white metal and RTV silicone moulds for resin are teeny tiny by comparison. Less than 0.5% if even that. However, once you've got your steel mould, the polystyrene plastic you use to cast your pieces is dirt cheap, in fact actual dirt is probably more expensive. Metal and resin are several £'s per kilo, so the material costs of those models are much much higher and consequently the gross profit is lower. Thats why everyone starts off using metal or resin, it's just cheaper to get into and the profit margins are great until you reach a certain level of production.

So now GW has spent hundreds of thousands on a mould and have to sell tens of thousands of copies of the sprue before they make a profit. To compare them to Revell or Tamiya is understandable, but consider that for every one sprue GW sells they probably sell 50 or more. That, simply, is why GW plastics are so damned pricey - they are trying to claw back the cost of that £200,000 mould back and all their overheads as fast as they can. If they didn't the cashflow problems would simply kill them dead and we'd have nothing at all.

Pinky Beecroft wrote:
I would have assumed that most GW stores are franchises with each franchisee responsible for the profitable operation of the store and paying some form of annual fee to GW, just a guess so I could be wrong.


GW own all their retail stores at enormous costs. They don't operate like subway or any other franchise, they personally run every GW store and it's all controlled centrally from Lenton. Pretty effectively IMHO :).

So I guess what I'm saying is that yes they could stand to lower them by a few pounds, but they'll never come into line with the big plastic kit manufacturers' prices unless their products become as popular as tank kits and such, ergo if we want prices to drop then we have to get more people involved with the hobby :). Just some food for all your thoughts :).

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think before you buy.


Never a truer word spoken :).

Will.

EDIT: I've just realised that what I've said there may not hold up much when you compare plastics from emerging companies, I can't remember the name of the specific company I have in mind but it always gets brought up when GW prices are discussed. I don't know about how they do things so I can't speculate much on why they are cheaper. But I'm guessing China may have alot to do with it.

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Last edited by Eorling on Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:02 pm 
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wow will j thanks for the info thats was probably one of the most interesting posts ive read on here (thts not sarcasm either) if i had coins id drop u one lol
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:07 pm 
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No problem man :). I just hope it makes sense and helps explain a few things. Also, good on you for reading up on it with the limited resrouces out there (GW don't exactly run WD articles on their fabrication processes), the more people understand it and ask questions the more progress we'll see.

Will.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:11 pm 
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Stupid overheads. :-X

Alas, it is a vicious cycle--in order to ultimately lower costs, as you've said Will J, more people need to purchase the product. But more peope will never purchase the product unless they lower the costs.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:24 pm 
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Yeh it's a bit of a catch 22 isn't it. Of course the other good thing tghat's happening at the moment is that there are alot of new companies springing up with really professional ranges. I had the pleasure of meeting the boys from Taban Miniatures at salute, they had only been going six months but look at the standard of product they're kicking out:

Image

Not only do they look good but they have great fluff and supporting material aswell. There are lots of companies like this springing up all the time and the more there are, the more mainstream gaming will become = lower prices. GW has made all that possible with their enourmous invesment in developing the market to a point where new companies can flourish, and we should all be thankful. Even in these times, wargaming and miniature collecting is a growing hobby and we are all definately part of something that is going somwehere very good in the future. The future's bright, the future's blazong orange! *puunnnnnnnnnnnn.....*

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:49 pm 
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Eorling wrote:
So I guess what I'm saying is that yes they could stand to lower them by a few pounds, but they'll never come into line with the big plastic kit manufacturers' prices unless their products become as popular as tank kits and such, ergo if we want prices to drop then we have to get more people involved with the hobby :).


As popular as tank kits. That's a good one. :rofl:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:13 pm 
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I know, sounds strange doesn't it. But if there are four different manufacturers making the same tank and all charging under £15 then the market must be FAR bigger than it seems. Same goes for planes, ships, cars etc etc.

Will.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:20 pm 
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If some one else has mentioned this then forgive me missing it.

Games Workshop prices will also be linked to the running costs of the vast quantity of stores they run. With the likes of Gripping Beast running purely off the net (I think) then they can naturaly set a lower price as they do not incur the same overheads.
As an example...I live in Hull, England, for those who don't know it's a city of 3/4 million with the suburbs. The GW store is slap bang in the city centre i.e. the highest business rates before anything like staff wages etc are considered, meaning you need to create a fair few sales just to break even.
Now multiply that across the country and so on...
Not forgetting the production costs.
Is that why they daren't invest too much in marketing as they don't have the budget/nerve to risk too much on what is to some degree, a select audience ?
However it was the Deagostini release of BGIME that got me hooked and I discovered what went on in that shop.
So maybe another release ? Or where they waiting for The Hobbit which has backfired for now at least.
Is the answer that the stores close and they go online ? That would seriously impact on those who enjoy the gaming side and then the knock on effect of sales to those people., so I do not believe that is a viable option.
And then you have to keep all us lot happy...not much of a challenge there !!!
In the current financial climate GW supply non essential stock (don't shout at me, you know what I mean) and would be one of the first things people cut back on when the belts need a tighten, so how do you play your hand...very carefully I think.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:29 am 
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Gandlaf the Grey wrote:
If some one else has mentioned this then forgive me missing it.

Games Workshop prices will also be linked to the running costs of the vast quantity of stores they run. With the likes of Gripping Beast running purely off the net (I think) then they can naturaly set a lower price as they do not incur the same overheads.
As an example...I live in Hull, England, for those who don't know it's a city of 3/4 million with the suburbs. The GW store is slap bang in the city centre i.e. the highest business rates before anything like staff wages etc are considered, meaning you need to create a fair few sales just to break even.
Now multiply that across the country and so on...
Not forgetting the production costs.
Is that why they daren't invest too much in marketing as they don't have the budget/nerve to risk too much on what is to some degree, a select audience ?
However it was the Deagostini release of BGIME that got me hooked and I discovered what went on in that shop.
So maybe another release ? Or where they waiting for The Hobbit which has backfired for now at least.
Is the answer that the stores close and they go online ? That would seriously impact on those who enjoy the gaming side and then the knock on effect of sales to those people., so I do not believe that is a viable option.
And then you have to keep all us lot happy...not much of a challenge there !!!
In the current financial climate GW supply non essential stock (don't shout at me, you know what I mean) and would be one of the first things people cut back on when the belts need a tighten, so how do you play your hand...very carefully I think.

Yes this has been mentioned before, but you definitely added some unique insight with your own post, at least in my opinion. What I wonder is, would it be more viable for GW to switch over to an independently-owned store model, rather than being responsible for all of the stores? I mean, is that viable? I'm thinking about it now, and it seems to me that there would be quite a bit of risk in trying that out; the prices would go down, and Games Workshop itself could reap a higher profit. However, that being said, there would probably be quite a lot less Games Workshop stores than there already are, as it might be a bit harder to find people willing to try and run a semi-successful very-specific store on their own rather than create a generic hobby store to get multiple brands to cater to more audiences. As for the production costs, Games Workshop is the leader in the area of plastic scultps right now. I certainly don't want them to go back to less detail, so I'm just not sure much can be accomplished price-wise in that area.

If you've lurked around any other gaming forums, you may have gotten the impression that Games Workshop is somewhat hated by those who do not already enjoy their miniatures and games. "Board gamers" seem to hate Games Workshop for no longer being a "gaming" company, and rather a "hobby" company; theydon't support their specialist games well, and all of their rpgs and board games and card games, etc, have been liscensed off or have been stopped altogether. Primarily historical gamers give me the impression that Games Workshop is too flashy and concerned with their appearance rather than realism (please note that these are just general stereotypes I've gathered by reading various forums). One thing is always in commonality with all GW "haters;" the price. Something must be done about these prices, because GW is a leader in the miniature world, and without them I would never have even known about these wonderful little toy soldiers. Unless the prices are lowered, I fear that things will die out.

overdramatic pessimism. :)
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:57 am 
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We have an independant stockist in the City also that sells a 'select' range from GW - would you believe me if I said they were priced the same and if not a touch more !!!
They have an extra 20p on the paint for a kick off :roll:

I would be interested to know if GW actually view any sights like this one as a canvass for opinion. I don't envisage they would ever declare this on a sight as they would be bombarded by private messages. But I don't recall someone who has said 'I work at one of the stores'..is there a block on staff joining forums ???

The plot thickens...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:32 am 
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I don't know if there is a "ban," I doubt it though. But I can almost guarentee that there are one or two GW staff on this forum, they may not advertise it but they'll be here. Not spying, they aren't Crebain from Dunland here to snoop and report to their dark master. Chances are the dark masters (or High Lords of Terra as they actually call themselves :roll:) wouldn't listen. Many people operate on the rule of listen to your profits first, and your customers last.

Jamros, you pessimsm is well founded, however GW will not share your logic as they are growing at the moment. So more people must be buying their products, which means more hobbyists to filter down to the smaller makers when they want to diversify their collecting and playing. You can find their 2009 shareholders report online, at the shareholder relations section of the site if memory serves. It gives alot of insight into their strategies.

It is a shame that GW don't support their specialist games, but they have more luctrative lines to concentrate on. Remember, the goal will never be to please us, the goal is to make money. Especially now that they have public shareholders to answer to, they have to behave like everyone making toasters or hoover bags.

Will.
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 Post subject: Re: The Games Workshop "Suggestion Box"
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:11 pm 
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well here's a crazy thought,what if they started selling off some of there old moulds to smaller model companys(i don't know much about that but i'm sure a resin/fiberglass mould or w/e might be good for at least a few sprues)?ik that only GW has the liscense to legally produce lotr mini's,but i'm sure they could work something out

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 Post subject: Re: The Games Workshop "Suggestion Box"
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:32 pm 
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When you say "old moulds" we are talking about two distinct types (excluding Forge World moulds which are RTV Silicone and used for casting resin): Steel moulds for plastic injection moulding and vulcanised rubber moulds for centrifugal white metal casting. Workshop has a secure storage facility for their steel moulds, think of the final warehouse scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark and you aren't far from the reality. The moulds within are cumulatively worth hundreds of thousands if not millions of pounds. Would GW sell off their intellectual property in the form of their moulds? No, I don't think so. The rubber moulds have a much shorter life span than the steel moulds, and second hand rubber moulds are usually a bit ratty.

The one pricing strategy that GW has that I thoroughly aggree with is different wholesale prices depending on the type of retailer. They want to support brick and mortar stores (as we all should be doing!!!!) so they give them larger wholesale discounts than they give to web only retailers. I think thats a very sensible thing to do, we want to see more gaming stores on the street.

Eorling.

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 Post subject: Re: The Games Workshop "Suggestion Box"
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:46 am 
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The thing about GW that I really don't understand is why their starter boxed sets ae so expensive. They should drastically reduce those prices. Because thats where all the new people come in. Even if it results in a very low profit, it will be far more profitable in the long run. Im talking about 15 quid for these sets rather than 50, because no one wants to start a hobby they don't even know they would enjoy for 50 quid.
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 Post subject: Re: The Games Workshop "Suggestion Box"
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:51 am 
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That is an excellent point, howvere once again it would never happen. If one product was significantly cheaper than the rest it would confuse people and they would ask awkward questions.

It's also important to remember that it is possible (and this is pure speculation I have no evidence whatsoever) that GW is controlling the size of its market and it's growth with the high prices. I know lots of Wargames manufacturers who don't actually want to grow much, or at least grow fast, why should GW be any different? Maybe they could go from 120m to 400m in a few years if they dropped their prices and started advertising, but maybe they just don't want to. Maybe they just want to maintin a slow steady growth, retaining customers while bringing in a steady supply of new ones. Remember that they got a bit stung when the LOTR craze died out and their profits plumetted, they were prepared for it and it didn't hurt them too much but it did sting. I don't think they want 40K and other core ranges to be cheap enough to becone a short lived fad which would ultimately ruin them when it died out. You could say that in terms of responsibility to their shareholders, GW is one of the most financially sustainable corporations in the world.

Dont have 100 new customers buying two or tree products then drifting off - get one new customer hooked, then keep 'em buying for 30 years.....

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