what do people think about this army list?
Epic Heroes:
Galadriel, Lady of Lothlorien 175pts
Haldir, Guardian of Lorien 75pts

Common Formations:
Galadhrim Regiment (3 companies) w/shields 150pts
Galadhrim Regiment (3 companies) w/shields 150pts
Galadhrim Archer Regiment (3 companies) w/captain 200pts
Galadhrim Knight Regiment (3 companies) w/captain and banner bearer 235pts

Total: 985pts

a very useful and cheap dueling hero is thranduil...hes only 50pts more than haldir and gives you a hero with F7 3 resilience, 3 might, epic strike, epic shot and mastery 2 of wilderness spells. well worth the investment if you ask me.

_________________
"Thou fool! No living man may hinder me!"
Witch King, RoTK

BTW- Thranduil is only 25 more points than a stormcaller and is a lot better!

Anyway for fluff reasons mirkwood could send allies to Lorien. They are right next to each other(though thranduil's palace is in the north). You could add in some mirkwood archers and even legolas

We recently had a Tale of Gamers in our local store and one of our players built up a Galadriem force. Although it was one of the best looking, it sadly failed him in most games. Many of the weaknesses can be addressed by list changes. Being a ToG many of his decisions were in getting some specific, attractive models painted, some unique conversions done, etc. He also put a bit more faith in the combat abilities of the Elves, based on his SBG experience.

Here are the weak points you need to keep in mind:

1. Many Evil armies are going to have a decent Defense and your Strength is going to be a challenge. Against my Dol Guldur force, for example, he was needing 6's often, and 5+ at best.
2. Your armor is going to keep you vulnerable. Against many opponents they only needed 4+ to take out a model. Combined with #1, simple attrition says where this goes.
3. We all pretty much agree that the Galadrhim forces are overpriced. Compare a Formation of Galadrhim with a formation of Morannon Orc. The Morannon will outnumber the Galadrhim because they are so much cheaper, and in a toe-to-toe fight the Morannon generally cut down the Galadrhim due to the Armor v. Strength issue.
4. Elf bows are best in the game, but archery is still pretty weak against high defense. You need to play these well to make them work.

I'm a big fan of Wood Elves in SBG and hope to get a solid WotR Mirkwood force built in time, but it's really a challenge...Galadrhim are not that much better here. Small numbers are probably your biggest challenge and for this reason I recommend staying away from Knights for a while at least. Put the points to basic troops and archers.

Also, the only way you're going to see the bows really shine (and they can!) is to be throwing down lots of dice. Three Companies of archers is probably a minimum. Five or six would be potent. Two formations of 5-6 Companies and you're finally getting somewhere. If you do bring along Thranduil, he is able to join a Formation of archers and use magic to boost you up a bit, plus can call Epic Shot. You want every bonus you can get as a Str 2 vs. Uruk or Morannon armor isn't very good. But when you're throwing 40+ dice you're bound to get some sixes.

Mobility is important. At The Double moves with their Pathfinder rule can mean you can quickly flank enemy formations and you need this. As mentioned above, going toe-to-toe with 6 Companies of Galadrim vs. 6 Companies of Morannon I believe you will be disappointed. But hitting those Morannon on the flank or rear thanks to an At the Double helps greatly.

As for deployment, I recommend you avoid large block formations vs. most foes. A block of 6 Companies is hard to maneuver thru enemy formations and terrain and may slow you down and force you to face front armor (shields) of your enemy. Formations of 4 Companies are often small enough to be able to slip thru better and are still large enough to deal and absorb damage. Here's where the Captains come in. More formations mean more Heroes needed so cheap Captains are good. In addition to their At The Double they add to your pool of Might, and an Elf Captain has decent stats so calling an Heroic Duel can take out many Evil Heroes (including almost any Evil spell caster!!).

Magic can be a great ally. Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman and others are all strong and themed options. Look for good spell combos and creative ways of using them. At 1000 points you could probably benefit from one very strong caster and perhaps one combo warrior/caster ( Thranduil, Gildor, etc.).

Look close at every special rule for your army and Heroes and have some ideas in advance how you are going to use them. After all, you are paying for those rules and they are just lost points otherwise. NEVER FORGET YOU HAVE TERROR!!!

It's funny how in SBG a force of Rivendell or even Galadrhim elves were often top-dog on the table, and even my Wood Elves were an army that I would put against any other foe (even did great with them at a Games Day a couple years ago). But in WotR the excessive cost per Company of Elves just seems a little too high to produce a balanced force and the army just takes more effort to build and play well enough to justify their status as Middle Earth's best.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

One thing to keep in mind both for SBG and WoTR is that elves of any type are meant to be mobile. With the high str. monsters and ungodly numbers of horde style armies you are ALWAYS going to be outnumbered, and will lose in straight up brawls 95% of the time. The saving grace is the fact that (in WoTR anyway) all elves are pathfinders and move 8". This with longbows means that once you're in range with the bows you can start backpedaling 4" every turn and still be able to shoot at your pursuers. Only making 2" of headway each turn is going to be incredibly frustrating for the bad guy.
True enough str1 and str2 (short range) against defenses of 6 and 7 means you're going to have a hard time wounding very many, but like Beowulf03809 said when you're throwing 40+ dice you're bound to do some damage. The best part about being able to shoot is that even though you're not killing very many you're not going to be taking any casualties yourself. Sure crossbows are a factor, but if you can keep kiting just out of their range they'll never get to shoot back since they can't move and shoot in the same turn.
Elves are known for their skills in archery and magic so it seems only fitting to have one or two formations of shields to block, but then use the rest of the points on multiple formations of archers. Having a hero like Radaghast in your shield wall can be a great way to stall an enemy advance while your archers get some distance.
Close combat is almost always going to be inevitable, but you can help even the odds by staying away from him as long as possible. Every kill you make at range will help you to survive in close quarters.

I really think the Elve's Terror is one of their most important factors in being a powerhouse in melee. If you charge someone and they fail their Terror check they are Fight 0, compared to your mighty Elves and that's going to be a lot of extra dice you are throwing, meaning you can decimate them that turn (assuming your Str vs their Armor doesn't spoil the fun). Most Evil armies are easy victims to this. You can increase the chance with a couple well placed spells (Light of the Valar). In addition to the significant advantage Terror gives you over an enemy formation when they fail, it also means some other formations may not even attack you since they must pass a Courage Test to charge (consider sometimes if it's better to throw that Light of the Valar at a secondary Formation rather than your main enemy just to help ensure you're not countered).

One pesky problem though…Heroes. Even a generic Orc Captain has just enough Courage to often ruin this. I believe you'll find that if you use your (usually) superior Heroes to take out the Heroes in the Evil formations though the battles will go more as you would hope (not to mention they will loose a source of Might / Spells). Without Hero support, many Evil formations will sometimes not even charge you because of their failed Courage. And when you charge them and they blow their test, they will deal nothing back to you while your dramatic difference in Fight value will have you throwing so many dice you can slice through Companies (again…that depressing Str/Armor prob).

I have only been playing as Evil lately so let me switch sides briefly to illustrate. As Evil I had a couple naturally Terror-causing Formations (Castellans + Ghostly Legion). Additionally, I had Khamul and the Mouth so I could cast Sunder Spirit twice per turn. I often mated this with Visions of Woe for extra damage or Wings of Terror (which usually just gave speed bonus but occassionally granted Terror) or Terrifying Aura on my Morannon and Mordor Uruk Formations . Against many foes this all worked out wonderfully. In some cases even better (when I would Sunder Spirit and then get the dual benefit of Fight-0 due to Terror and hit them with a Spirit Grasp unit to go against their weakened Courage rather than tough armor). Even against superior fighters such as Dwarves and Elves, the chance to cripple their Fight was a major aid. And this was against mostly Good opponents, who already have a Courage advantage. Against an Evil force, that -1 Courage from LotV is even more potent than -1 Sunder Spirit is against Good forces.

On a related note: I really think GW made a mistake not making the Elvish Glaive weapons give a +1 Str rather than +1 Fight. As it stands the one extra die for the Fight bonus doesn't usually seems to be as necessary as trying to get a little help cutting thru heavy armor or wounding monsters. I'd give my Wood Elves the Glaives every game if it helped Str, but as is they are only point fillers IMO.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

I agree with you on all counts except one. While terror can be a huge advantage, and the extra fight will have you rolling more dice then your opponent there is one decidedly negative factor that always comes up when dealing with elves in melee.
Numbers.
In just about every single case involving elves vs. an evil faction the elves are always going to be significantly outnumbered. A good example might be Galadhrim vs. Morannons. For every company of Galadhrim you can get, your opponent can have 2 companies of Morannons for the same points cost. So if you had a formation with 6 companies of Galadhrim for the same price you would be up against 12 companies of the orcs. So the elves are going to have to kill 2 for every one that the orcs kill just to break even. This is made even more difficult by the fact that Morannons are str 4 so will be wounding on 5's (assuming the Galadhrim are equiped with shields) and will only be wounded on 6's if they take shields themselves. (putting them at D 7) Even if the orcs fail their terror check and go to F 0 they will still get their 8 attacks per direct company, and their attacks for support. Even in the best case scenario the elves are going to take some pretty significant damage since every company lost is a large chunk of points.
Now consider the alternative. Using the arrows and spells as the main damage dealer of your army and using the shieldwall to stall if the enemy gets too close. There are multiple Elf heroes that know the spells of wilderness so couple the benefits of those spells with your archery. You can Call Winds to drive your opponent away from you when he gets to close, you can entangle to slow him down even more, you can Guide Arrows to increase the number of shots you have, and you can Nature's Wrath to do direct damage and help thin the tide. Add to this 3 heroes that have Epic Shot (which always goes well with someone like Galadriel who can Epic Renewal with her Touched by Destiny or can use Counsellor) and you're going to be doing some pretty hefty damage while not taking much if any yourself.
True enough it's going to take a while to slowly wear them down with arrow fire if they are a high defense unit, but if you have enough formations shooting the odds are that you're going to be taking a decent number down each turn. That and if you use your spells to kite properly it's going to be quite a while before the bad guys can reach you. By that time hopefully you'll have evened the odds enough that your terror and high fight will be able to kill the rest.
Elves are expensive while orcs are expendable. If there's any way to kill them without taking casualties yourself always do it.

Agreed. My post earlier in this thread had the same example (Galadrhim vs. Morannon) with the same issue of unbalanced Str/Armor between them. The Terror description was just to bring forth a key aspect to keep in mind when you DO engage in combat, not to say that Terror lets you go toe-to-toe with superior forces.

I think GW definitely over-valued Elvish Companies in their points. I always thought that their points given in SBG were pretty much on-target, and where they did drift a bit it wasn't by that much. But the points of Elvish Companies are just so much higher than they should be in WotR. In SBG if you had 100points of Galadrhim Elves vs. 100 points of Morannon Orc you would be a bit out numbered but the overall strength of the two forces should be close enough to make the game fair. In WotR 100 points will get you wither 2 Companies of Galadrhim or 4 Companies of Morannon, and those Orcs will have a far easier time taking out the Elves.

Elvish armies in WotR need a lot more effort to design and play successfully due to this massive (compared to SBG) point difference. Bow fire (which isn't great at Str2), Magic, quality and special rules all need to be leveraged to the maximum to give you a good chance of victory.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

I see. Yeah I totally agree. The points difference in WoTR is definitely a difficult thing to overcome. I would have loved to see glaives with the +1 str or +1 to rolls like a 2h without the -1 to F to reflect the skill and craftsmanship with which the blades were made and wielded. Although I suppose 2h without the drawback might be overkill.
The +1 F just doesn't seem like a great advantage, but that's just my opinion.

I've had a Galadhrim army in SBG for years, and am in the process of introducing them into WotR. Here are some things I’ve found:
- Galadhrim are expensive. This mainly means they can’t take many hits. As such I try to keep them out of combat and out of shooting/magic LoS as much as possible, unless I have to.
- Terror is your friend. I always try to let my enemy charge, forcing a first test, and than counter-charge, forcing a second test. Throw in some C-reducing magic, and some Mirkwood Sentinels, and all those tests means they’ll fail sooner or later.
- Mobility is important. If the enemy has priority, don’t be afraid to paddle 8” backwards and leave him hanging. Remember you can ignore terrain when moving, so try and fight around terrain as much as possible, it’ll give you cover from shooting/attacks and allows you to outflank your enemy.

Naturally, we compare Galadhrim to similar units, such as Morannon Orcs, Easterlings, Uruk-Hai… and find they are costly, but don’t get the usual S/D bonus. However, I believe the Terror/F/C/M bonuses make them a viable choice, if one that requires a different set of mind. Here are some tactics:
- I have a single formation of Galadhrim, 3 companies big, I plan on increasing them to 4, because I know they’ll take hits. I figure the banner isn’t worth the cost, a Captain is, but he’s optional if you have Epics.
- If the enemy has supirior numbers, use these against him, let only one enemy fight you at a time. Bottle necks are essential for this, but we usually have plenty of terrian on the table, so it’s doable. Also send small units into his lines to slow him down, say Galadhrim Knights or ambushing Ents, but be ready to lose them.
- Combine multiple units. Have units standing by charge the enemy flank. Wood Elves are good for this with their throwing weapons, Galadhrim Knights with their shoot + a lot of cavalry attacks striking the enemy weak flank, Ents for some über-killing. If you have an eagle, do a rear charge.
- Duel. Your heroes have the highest F in the game, make most of this to kill enemy heroes, reducing his leadership and boosting your Terror effect.
- Galadhrim are the anvil in army made of glass. It’s not an easy job, but they’re the best we’ve got, and they’re not half bad at it. Just remember to use plenty of Epic Defence and Blessing of the Valar.

On Wood Elves:
- I found them to be actually useful when equiped with bows. They’ll kill the enemy shooting units with ease, they’ll put a serious dent on any infantry units coming your way, and with their cloaks they can’t be attacked at range, and can shield your non-cloaked Galadhrim.
- I use 1 or 2 company formations, making the most of their M8, ignore all terrain mobility, and giving me multiple Terror-causing, expendable units to just screw with the enemy line.
- They have throwing weapons, Terror, F5… meaning that when flanking an enemy company, they’ll probably do some kills in the shooting phase (6 S3 shots vs D5), and than do more kills when charging, while the enemy won’t do much kills back (8 attacks – shooting kills -3 from flank charge = few attacks back).
- I don’t see much use for them with spears or glaives, the bows are way better. I am considering giving them shields, to use them as Galadhrim/Guards of the Galadhrim Court.

On Galadhrim Knights:
- These guys are great, if fragile. I use mine with bows to maximise their usefulness, and they mostly flank/rear charge, meaning the enemy will have few attacks striking back. This usually results in 10-21 attacks per company hitting on 5+, dealing major pain.
- For my next game I’ll try 1 or 2 company formations, riding into the enemy lines, slowing him down and making flank/rear charges/shooting. This does require taking out enemy shooting (easy with longbows), but also their magic (hard).

Good points. Most of what you have for the Galadhrim are actually applicable to the Wood Elves as well and you gave a good analogy of the army being a glass anvil.

In WotR I have found little/no use fo Glaives yet. The extra die per Company generally hasn't been that important. So all of my WE Formations are 100% bows. In our group, your Command Company configuration represents the Formation so it's all Bow models and then all of my attached Companies have several Bow models in them, usually filling the front rank of the Company. So it looks like the melee models are just in there supporting the Bows (they do after all engage in melee as well).

So even though those bows are pretty weak when you're tossing 80+ dice you're going to get some 6s.

Eagles seem more effective in swoop attacks than anything else, but it is really situational. Otherwise good calls.

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

@Beowulf03809, thanks for the feedback.

I had a look at the Eagle rules, and they are indeed unfit for rear assault, too vulnerable to shooitng amongst other things.

On Galadhrim, I forgot to add mention my main point: they are our battle line, they take the assaults and the shots, so that our vulnerable units (everythings else) doesn't have to. But at 50 points per company and D6, they're not as easy to use as other shield formations.

On glaives, I can certainly see the irony: for years we had these things shoved down our throats, paying points for something that most of the time we didn't want. Now two-handed weapons are actually pretty useful, and they taketh away... On the other hand, Elves hitting everything on a 5+ does sound a bit powerful.