Okay am going to give this its own post and not ramble, do you think that a model that calls epic sacrifice gets to roll the 3+ save on hits he might take in a duel? If in said duel the model that called Epic sacrifice dies does the formation get the benefits from Epic sacrifice for the remainder of the turn?

Sildien

_________________
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

No, the rules say he saves hits on his formation, no mention of duels or hits on himself.

RAW, this is indeed correct, so I'd go with that rather than making it messier.

_________________
The secret to Elves being Terror causers, isn't that they're scary. They're so shiny they blind you.

But once a hero joins a formation does he not become part of it until he leaves? Do you think if he is killed does the effect stay on the formation?

Sildien

_________________
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

Yes. As I said- by RAW, this is how it is written. The death of the character is not stated to cause the Epic Sacrifice to disappear.

_________________
The secret to Elves being Terror causers, isn't that they're scary. They're so shiny they blind you.

No, the character has to die for his ability to take place, how can he sacrifice himself if he's already died once before?

I would say yes...once the action is called the save immediately takes effect, regardless of whether he dies afterward. The idea is for the hero to go down in a blaze of glory, hes going to die during the turn anyways so it doesn't matter if he dies early.
On the subject of whether or not the hero would benefit from the save, I would say yes. he is after all a part of his formation and benefits from any effects that are currently effecting them

_________________
"Thou fool! No living man may hinder me!"
Witch King, RoTK

I doesn't matter if the hero benifits from the save as he will die anyway.

Am I reading you right, are you saying that if the Hero calls Heroic Sacrifice on turn 1 and after removing the model the formation gets the saves for the rest of the battle? Epic/Heroic Actions do not have a persistant effect and have to be called every turn and he has to be alive to call the Epic Sacrifice.

The rules state that the save only lasts for the duration of the turn the action was called do they not?

_________________
"Thou fool! No living man may hinder me!"
Witch King, RoTK

I personally don't think a hero can call an Epic Sacrifice during a duel or that it would last through the rest of the phase if he is killed in the duel. This does however raise another question if you do believe that his Epic Sacrifice persists through to the end of the phase.
It says in the descriptions for Epic Sacrifice, Epic Defence, and Epic Rage that a hero declares the Epic action before his formation fights. If you take this to mean that the hero can call this during his duel, and that these effects persist till the end of phase even if he's killed, why would you not carry over the effects of courage an fight like it says on pg. 67?

"Any heroes that have survived the duel lend their fight and courage values to their companies as normal."

If you are taking away fight when the hero dies that means you might also be taking away the effects of an Epic Strike. It works the same way as the other Epic Actions save for the fact that it specifically says you can use it before a duel.

"If a Hero declares an Epic Strike before HE fights, his fight value is increased to 10 until the end of the phase."

So now if the effects of an Epic Strike are removed with the Hero when he's slain, why would the other Epic actions persist?
I imagine if they had meant for Epic Sacrifice to be used in a duel they would have said "before he fights" like Epic Strike rather then "before his formation fights" like Epic Defence and Rage.

It is actually pretty big Question if he can call epic sacrifice and he can save his wounds caused by a duel on a 3 plus, he can also call duel or what ever other special rules he has. A 3+ save make him very surviable if he is allowed to take the saves, and say he has been Counslered for who knows how many might points, heroic fight, massive dice roll modification because why not he is dead at the end of the turn why not use it all up!! This one is sticky cause my rohan opponent feels like the epic hero is part of the formation and therefor benefits from the epic sacrifice, and it would stay on the formation whether he lives or dies from a duel. He feels like It is a Epic Action which is greater than a Herioc duel. It is very anoying little trick, and he throws alot of 3+ saves. Usually costs me lots of might and actions to counter and turn the fight my way, and sometimes it really goes bad and I get owned. Agian thanks for your imput, but this is probably one of those deal that will never be settled until a FAQ comes out, but thanks agian for your imput.

Sildien

_________________
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

Any time
I agree about the order of Normal>Heroic>Epic actions, but I believe that realism overrules all of it in cases that lack a clear cut answer like this. Besides if he thinks that Epic Sacrifice overrules a Heroic Duel, how would it work if it was an Epic Duel? The entire context of the rules in this book is meant to make the game as realistic as possible. They're taking examples from the movies and books to make the rules feel as authentic as possible.

Boromir vs. Uruk Hai (Epic Sacrifice)

Aragorn vs. Lurtz (Heroic/Epic Duel)

Legolas + crazy bow skills (Epic Shot)

etc.

So in a case like this it kind of seems like saying "The way I want to use this Epic action would not work realistically in any way whatsoever, but the rules don't expressly forbid it" (not referring to you specifically just saying I as a figure of speech) IE a hero is killed dueling another hero before their formations fight, but somehow, despite being dead, he is still going to take the hits for his formation. Epic Sacrifice is not a spell he's casting on his formation (in which case I would agree that it would last till the end of the phase whether he was dead or not) but it's not. He's literally taking the hits FOR his formation which is why he's removed at the end of the phase. Unless they want to prop him up and use his body as a shield he won't be saving anyone.

Same thing with Epic Defence or Rage. The only reason those blokes get those bonuses is because the hero is there. Either he's telling them to clean up the line and look sharp (Epic Defense) or he's making some kind of speech like Braveheart to get his dudes all [word deleted] off (Epic Rage) If he gets jacked why would his men retain that bonus? If anything there should be a penalty to the formation because they just saw their leader get pasted.

Just my thoughts.

I think people are trying to read to much into rules that isn't there. Rewind abit, the Epic Sacrifice rule allows hits on the formation to be saved thats it, nothing else, no effect on heroic duels at all - he's sacrificing himself for his men - how can you scarifice yourself to protect yourself?
Its only when people try to use abilities in a way they are not intended that more questions arise and cause problems.

LMFAO! This is why I play with Jayha85!!