I have no objection to the revision of stats to make the Numenoreans more like they were described in the books, as long as their points value reflects this increased potency. I would not impose a bow/spear choice - spears break all too easily and swords are better when it comes to close-in work. There is no issue with carrying shield and spear plus having a good sword ready as a backup - historical rmies have done this for thousands of years. The Numenoreans were the toughest survivors of the greatest houses of Men from the First Age; their size and strength made them formidable in combat, though I doubt whether any of them could equal an elf when it comes to archery or outright speed/agility. And never underestimate the value of anger; both the High Elves and Numenoreans had suffered long at the hands of Sauron and his minions, so they were determined to make an end of it. Sauron had multiplied orcs to huge numbers, and had the benefit of fortifications, yet they all fell, eventually. The High Elves were almost all gone, by the time of the War of the Ring, yet any that remained were overwhelming potent when fighhting the rank and file of Mordor - think of Glorfindel, Elladan and Elrohir.

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Very nice thread. So far we've all agreed that the Numenorians got the shaft when it comes to stats, and this thread has produced some very well thought out ideas concerning revised stats.

As a side note I would like to point out that the Warriors of Numenor have been around since the beginning of the game, due to the simple fact that they were some of the first models produced based on the movie. That said, the game has changed quite a bit since then and I suspect that since the game is based mostly on the events of the LOTR movie trilogy, any stats, models or gaming material outside of the realm of the movies is going to be open to criticism.

I would like to hope that at some point GW will go beyond the material of the Third Age and explore more of the earlier works. If not, then no problem we have a lot of people here on the OR who are interested in it and I'm sure there will be plenty of interest in the future to explore the game outside of the GW box.

Again, great thread. Thanks for posting.

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It took a while, but here's a Numenorian captain profile. Before I present it, I have to comment that GW seems to be in its own internal arms race. The new Harad supplement has profiles that seem overpowered compared to previous offerings. Captains with Strength 5 and 3 attacks? Corsair Captains with a fight of 5? Give me a break. The Numenorians were the pinnacle of mankind, both in body and mind.

So considering that, I've been restrained

Captain of Numenor, 65 points

F S D A W C M W F
5/4+ 4 6 2 2 5 2 1 1

Wargear: a captain of Numenor wears heavy armour and carries a sword. He may be given the following at additional cost:

Shield: 5 points
Horse: 10 points
Lance: 5 points
Armoured Horse: 15 points

Special Rule: Pride of Numenor
A Numenorian Captain is the best warrior humanity has to offer. They are both inspired followers and inspiring leaders. They count as being within the area effect of a banner if their leader is within 12"/28cm. If they are the leader of the force, or the initial leader is killed, their Stand Fast is 12"/28cm.

Wow, that's a neat captain. However, I actually like the idea of a bog-standard captain in the force - I think the Numenorean captain should be left as-is.
That said, I think you should change the name of this stat to something like Marshal of Numenore and add 5pt to his cost. The Pride of Numenore rule makes him a natural leader for the army (who wants to see Elendil & Isildur lead every little battle?)
I've been working on a Numenorean army for some time, & it will probably be the first good army I actually complete. I've done some work on an 'Elite' troop type, too, which will be featured in my fan sup if I ever get it finished.

Anyway, I think we should also revise the LoME ally list for Numenore, because they had a lot more than elves and a handful of dwarves fighting beside them: there were other Men as well, the local inhabitants who had been fighting alongside the elves during the whole Second Age.
So, bearing in mind that the names are to be changed for contectual accuracy, here's what I've been thinking:

Levies of Middle Earth

King of Rohan
Rider of Rohan

Dunedain of the North
Ranger of Arnor

Captain of Lamedon (Use Wildman Cheiftain stats)
Clansman of Lamedon

They count as their own army list, but can only be allied with forces that include a Numenorean faction.

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I like your idea, and the name. I think you're right, 5 more points for the special rule, but then it would be nice to distinguish him from other captains. So how about this:

Marshall of Numenor, 80 points

F S D A W C M W F
5/4+ 4 6 3 2 5 3 1 1

Wargear: a Marshall of Numenor wears heavy armour and carries a sword. He may be given the following at additional cost:

Shield: 5 points
Horse: 10 points
Lance: 5 points
Armoured Horse: 15 points

Special Rule: Pride of Numenor
A Numenorian Marshall is the best warrior humanity has to offer. They are both inspired followers and inspiring leaders. They count as being within the area effect of a banner if their leader is within 12"/28cm. If they are the leader of the force, or the initial leader is killed, their Stand Fast is 12"/28cm.

No one so far has really given much thought to the Numenorian steel bow. Of all of the archery mentioned in LoTR, the only one given in detail is the steel bow. The orcs were Scared of them... not the elves or the later humans. Not that I'm suggesting steel bows causing terror, but something like this...

In addition to normal bowmen...

12 points
<table bgcolor="#106600" width="300" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="4">
<tr align = "center"><td></td><td>F</td><td>S</td><td>D</td><td>A</td><td>W</td><td>C</td><td>M</td><td>W</td><td>F</td></td>
<tr bgcolor="#FFFFCC" align="center"><td>Royal Longbow </td><td>4/4+</td><td>4</td><td>6</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>4</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td></tr>
</table>
The Royal Longbowmen are equipped with intricately crafted heavy armor, blades of exceptional quality, and the duly feared Numenorian steel bow.
They may also take the following for the indicated points cost...
Horse.....6pts

Special Rules:
Steel longbow: An almost ancient craft lost in the depths of time, the steel bow was and is a centerpiece of Numenorian ingenuity. It is feared among the ranks of the enemy, and could only be almost matched in effectiveness by the keen-eyed elves.
The steel bow takes this profile:
........Str........Range........Movement penalty
.........*............36"..............full...............

* When rolling to wound, all models with only a single wound in their profile are wounded on a throw of a 5+. Models with multiple wounds are wounded on a 6+, but not those with a defense greater than 8, at which the bow counts as strength 3. Otherwise, it is considered to be a crossbow.

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I think having Numenoreans outshooting Elves is a bit much, nor does a clean and simple game like LotR needs such extensive proliferation of rules.

I would tweak the Numenorean list by keeping the point cost the same but bumping them to Courage 5 and 3+ shooting with normal 24 inch strength 2 bows. A price increase for the bow would then be appropriate.

A small army wide special rule like either allowing the banner to have a 6 inch instead of a 3 inch effect range or perhaps conferring a banner ability to Numenorean heroes would give added flavour to the army. Or perhaps Numenoreans get an Osgiliath veteran style rule where if they are within 6 inches of a hero, they get +1 Fight.

That would give the Army of the High King a good buff to their infantry, since they can only get infantry, add flavor of being a true elite army, while keeping their statistics throughly within the realm of men.

Hey, I just found this thread, it looks to be pretty good, my Numenoreans are in need of some more troop choices.

Is it just me that thinks there should be some sort of Ranger-type option, the Rangers of Middle-earth box set could be a viable candidate...

Also, I think we should be able to ally a King of Men somewhere, so there are more hero options... but that's what I think.

Yesterday I got a blister of the bowmen... do you want me to have a go at converting some steel longbows? I'll post up some WiP pics once they're started if you want.

Cheers

theye

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@whafrog: I like that addendum & am now adding it to my collection of Numenorean stats.

@BrightLance: I like the idea, but don't think the rule should be that complicated. Just give him an elf- or dwarf-bow. For his basic stats, he should have armor, not heavy armor, because heavier armor interfeers with accuracy in shooting.

@MikeC: I have to agree with my colleagues who think that Numenoreans should not be as accurate as elves. The Numenoreans are more slugger-type fighters than subtle.

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I think i tried a while back to make some rules for these guys... ill have another attempt...

Warrior of Numenor 9pts
The warriors of Numenor represented the finest soldiers at the height of humanity.

F/4-4+ S/4 D/5 A/1 W/1 C/4

Wargear:
Comes with hand weapon and heavy armor.

Shield 1pt
Spear 1pt
Steel Bow 2pts*
Banner 25pts

*Steel Bow: S/3 Range 18" special: A warrior of Numenor gets a +1 to hit while volleying.


Marshal of Numenor 80pts
The Marshals of Numenor often rallied the warriors when all hope of victory was lost.

F/5 S/4 D/6 A/2 W/2 C/5 M/3 W/2 F/2

Wargear:
Comes with hand weapon and heavy armor

Horse: 10pts

Special:
The Marshals of Numenor count as a banner to all warriors withing 6"

Devotion: The warriors of Numenor are so devoted to their marshals that as long as they have LOS to the Marshal they will benifit from +1 to their courage.

....The versions offered by Lord Hurin & whafrog were fine. It's rude to fiddle with them and present it like you came up with their ideas. So are you saying that you came up with the same thing previously, or that you want to contribute your earlier ideas to the current thread?

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i didn't mean to do anything at any levle that would be insulting- just had a go at tweaking the rules already presented. I had made rules before but not the ones i posted here

Ok, fair enough. I have to say I like the earlier versions. Interesting alternate rule to the Marshal, though.

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Lots of shooting is already at 3+. Strength 2 bows keeps a clear separation between men and elves.

But its not a big deal.

The biggest issue is giving them some special rule to maximize fight 4 since they are defense 5 and should remain at defense 5.

The rule of giving the marshall a banner ability mentioned here sound good but 12" sounds excessive.

I have to agree with you. They are the strongest Men in Middle Earth but they shouldn't be essentially Good Uruk Hai, so they need something more...
Maybe their greater valor should mean that the range of their Banners is 6" rather than 3"....

Perhaps. If we're expanding their general banner range, maybe the Marshall's should be reduced ro 6". What do you think, Whafrog?

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I like the extra banner diameter, very simple and properly focuses on their martial prowess.
Not sure why they can't have a heavy armour option though, as they were the most powerful human kingdom on earth at the time, far wealthier than anyone else. They'd have had the resources. If the argument is that it just makes them like Uruk hai, I'd say that's just an artifact of the rule system that has variation limits. Besides, the Numenorians came first, chronologically
About the steel bow: my impression was it was a naval marine weapon, made of steel so it could be shorter than a longbow for easier use on ships, but as powerful. So I'd just treat it as a Citadel Guard's longbow option (treated as elf bow), costing 2 points with a max shoot skill of 4+). They were probably expensive to make, so an alternative might be to make it more powerful (Str 4, but range and mobility as elf bow), but limit the number of steel bows to 20% or less rather than the normal 33%. Then you could opt for normal bows at 33% if you prefer.
I was reading up some other people's research and interpretations for other game systems, and the consensus seems to be that Numenorians were mostly heavy infantry, using swords, spears and pikes (or maybe spears with something like the Easterling's Phalanx special rule), with some small amount of cavalry, for scouting and skirmishing.
Good ideas floating around I hope GW is watching and does a well-considered revision.

Bumping them to heavy armor would not unnecessarily make them good Uruk hai but jamming them near into that catagory seems wasteful since they would simply then be Gondor elite which we already have with Citadel Guard armies.

I see the Numenoreans as more of a skill army rather than a Gondor plus. The writing seems to encourage a theme towards men that were more like elite blades and fencers rather than the strapping on tons of armor. Just as elves rely on centuries of training rather than strapping on tons of armor and fighting as a phalanx.

The banner rule to 6" is great. I really like an Osgiliath veteran style rule where you can get a +1 Fight buff either from a banner or off of any Numenorian hero.