Heroic Duels - Is a game breaker!

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Tue May 03, 2011 1:45 pm

I imagine if you played those same forces again, knowing what you now know about the game you would have different results. As noted, that second duel was invalid. Also, you could have used your Captain in the first Uruk company to call an Heroic Fight. Your Uruks are tough enough that you might have won it (you only need to loose one less model than your enemy) but that doesn't matter because win or loose it would have separated your units at the end of the fight. As long as you didn't charge back into that same Formation again (which you could only do if you won) there would be no chance for Aragorn to Duel.

If he's putting a lot of points into Aragorn with the intention of dueling you to death, then just break up some of your force into smaller companies with no hero (no one to duel). Use these to buffer Saruman's formation so he can't get to you directly and blast the heck out of him with spells. Saruman's lists are pretty effective.

Dueling seems to only be a significant issue in the game as people are first learning and either put a lot of weight behind the tactic or else leave themselves vulnerable to it. You will learn to adapt to it as you continue to play and your opponent will probably move away from it for similar reasons as well.

Killerkatanas · **Joined:** Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:52 am **Posts:** 182

Thanks for the advice, and thanks for hearing my rant...

Brian

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Thu May 05, 2011 12:05 pm

I had the same rant and have also had others. A powerful enough Epic, dueling a weak enough hero, does have the potential for causing a lot of damage to a Formation. But limited Might supplies combined with proper design and play of an army can reduce the risk dramatically. There are still some serious holes for abuse in the system for which many of us are trying to find non-cheesy ways to deal with them, but a lot of my frustrations have resulted from areas where I can just adjust how my army is configured and played.

I'm finding WotR is full of a lot of revelations and opportunities for adaptation. If you're lucky these come from conversations like this board with like minded players, or even from your own study of the books. But often they come at the table.

Killerkatanas · **Joined:** Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:52 am **Posts:** 182

I clearly used this rule to gain me the benefit of additional kills today.

In a game where I was Mordor fighting against Dwarves, the Khazad Guard, 3 companies strong, was attacked by my Troll Chieftan which was part of the "Black Legion" Battlehost. I called Heroic Duel before the fight. I ended up rolling a 6 to his 1, which ended up giving me 8 rolls on the chart. I ended up killing his champion, and wiping out 17 of the guard, then finished the rest off in melee.

Note that with the Battlehost I was able to reroll 1's on the table with the Troll Chief

In another Melee I had Gothmog call Epic Strike and Heroic Duel against a six comany Dwarf Ranger unit. In the results I ended up rolling 6 times on the table and ended up killing the captain and 12 of the rangers. The fight afterwards left him with only a single company left.

Total cheese!

Heroic Duels, Yep...a really thought out and well balanced rule

Brian

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:48 pm

LOTR is meant to be about the heroes!

Though even my Gothmog & Wraiths fails to have as much impact, poor luck with D6 rolls

smaul · **Posted:** Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:41 pm

We rarely see that, most of our Duels end up pretty close, so if it happens with you all the time then you are a rare case and very lucky I guess.

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:13 pm

I must admit I've seen quite a lot of Heroic duels go 6 vs 1 on the dice. You wouldnt expect it too frequently, but it happens enough to be memorable, and the results can be devasting... especially if the winner has ES aswell...

Xelee · **Posted:** Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:33 pm

It will be memorable due to the way the human mind treats evidence, our inbuilt tendency to remember those things that fit our preexisiting theories.

Some random element is a good thing though, a duel should definitely be a risk and in WOTR some heroes should be absolutely fearsome on close combat. However, I do think that the role of ES in all of this totally messes things up. It creates situations where the margins are ludicrously big and it has been doled out to all sorts of heroes that shouldn't be the great duelers that they are. So I think it is worthwhile to change the way ES specifically works in duels, while leaving the rest of the mechanics as is.

Cheers

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

I don't think the problem people have with duels is exactly the amount of damage a duel can cause, it is the incongruity of a hero's formation causing X damage normally,without a duel, but if the hero has to concentrate on fighting the enemy hero and doesn't have as much time to fight the enemy troops then they cause X+Y damage. If a hero is capable of incidentally killing Y enemy troops when he is concentrating on fighting the enemy hero, why can't he cause at least Y damage when all he has to worry about are the rank and file types?

Xelee · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:24 am

Story logic.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:46 pm

It seems some models may have been given ES as a defensive action (such as the Nazgul), but I'd rather have seen them given some sort of "Epic Shielding" rule where they can boost their Fight but can't roll any dice on the table if they win...they're just covering their butt. For the actual combat intensive Heroes for which ES is appropriate I think that list is shorter and if Epic Strike were pulled back to a smaller number of such Heroes, or perhaps given a cost of 2 Might, then it would help a lot with some of the loop-hole maximizers.

Even still, many Heroes are F6 or F7 (even Elf Captains are F6) so an Epic Strike isn't necessarily a guaranteed thing, especially if the lower F Hero has a little Might to spend. And since it usually costs 2 Might (1 to call Duel, one to call ES) most models can only do it once per game. Yes, there are exceptions and loopholes and in a tournament situation you will see people push for every advantage they can get, not matter how cheezy or power-gaming it might be. But in your local gaming time you really shouldn't be dealing with that sort of thing too much, unless that mentality is how your group plays. If so then there isn't much to be done except pick who you play against.

In the big 3000+ per side game we played a couple weeks ago we did have a couple ES Heroes, but they each saved theirs for the eventual show down between each other. There were several HDs called by Captains and non-ES Epic Heroes and those all added a lot of flavor to the game. Some were WAY unbalanced because of a big difference in the dice roll (loosing most of my Mordor Uruks and their Captain in a duel against a Dwarf Captain comes to mind) but in most cases it seemed 2 was the average number of dice being rolled on the table. Death of the Captain was and loss of a couple models was typical. That isn't a game breaker. My Troll Chief was able to get a couple Duels against generic Dwarf heroes that really did some damage but you'd expect a Troll Chief to be a major combat force anyway and because he's just VH2K it didn't take long for the Dwarves to take him out once they concentrated their efforts on him.

In some Duels you may have an event where a Hero cuts down a whole Company of warriors and then kills off the enemy Captain, but just remember the charge of Aragorn on the Pellinor if you want some movie-inspired imagery.

I think WotR has a couple potential game breakers. Epic Strike / Heroic Duel, Magic (mostly evil), Nazgul hordes, Counselor chains, "pinwheel" style armies, and probably a couple more. But these all reek of powergaming and such players will look for whatever loop holes and weak points exist in any game system and exploit them to their fullest. Sadly WotR has several of these as it's a new system and needs time to mature. So it's really up to the players to NOT be twits in their army design when playing friendly games (tournaments are generally win-above-all so expect such things there). If you play locally against someone that does this, thank them for the game at the end and just let them know your feelings and don't play them again if they continue. But if you're exploiting one of the other weakpoints yourself then don't throw stones.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Spiney Norman · **Joined:** Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:57 am **Posts:** 2

The worst abuse of the epic challenge system I've seen is using a lineage of the firstborn hero combined with the fortune that forces the enemy to auto-fail their terror test which reduces them to F1 = absolute carnage. Its basically an auto-kill formula for any hero of your choice.

Epic strike isn't so terrible, esp since I tend to run multiple cheapish heroes to spread my risk

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:52 pm

I don't think the timing is right that way. I'm pretty sure your Terror tests are made in the charge phase when you are charged by a Terror causing foe. Epic Strike is declared before the Formations fight. The only example anyone has come up with yet to counter Epic Strike (and it's confirmed in the official FAQ) is the Shade's special rule. That is "always on" so even if ES was declared it resets immediately back down from the Shade.

Against non-ES foes though you are right. Use the Fortune to fail the Terror test and then slaughter them. Not just in the Duel though but in the following Fight. All those extra dice if you have a high Fight Formation are really going to help while reducing the risk of return damage.

Xelee · **Posted:** Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:16 pm

Yes, a good trick vs armies that don't have access to Inspiring leaders, and when the target heroes lack Epic strike, but that is pretty situational and hardly a game-breaker. I know well the frustration of trying to get EC to work reliably enough vs even courage 5 Wraiths (since I need to get them twice and they have an okish chance of passing the courage test) and bagging Isengard heroes can be an exercise in frustration!

In fact, it is one of a number of individually small reasons that add up to Epic Strike exerting more of a 'pull' in list-design than it probably should.

Killerkatanas · **Joined:** Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:52 am **Posts:** 182

Once again, I used this tactic to destroy an entire unit of three companies of Rangers of Ithilien, along with Danmrod, Madril, and Faramir, who were deployed in a ruined building!

I used Amdur this time, called an epic duel (faramir responded with a heroic duel and we rolled off, I won). I then called epic strike, (Faramir did the same). I rolled a 2 and a 6 to Faramir's 2. My total was 10 + 6 +1 to Faramir's 10 + 2.

This gave me 5 rolls on the duel table.

I rolled a 2,3,3,5,6,6 and ended up killing Faramir and 8 of his men. During the melee I made short work of the rest of them.

So not as nastly, but this tactic alone allowed me to wipe out one full compnay of troops before the melee began. It was only because of Faramir's Epic Strike ability that his unit was saved. If he was not there, or had he not called ES, the total would have been 5 (madril or faramir) +2, so a 7 to a 17, and I would have gotten 10 rolls on the table and most likely got 2 companies, and maybe even did enough damage to make it be removed from the board.

AGAIN, EPIC CHEESE!

Brian

smaul · **Posted:** Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:00 pm

we fought a group battle this weekend.

My RW Khamul got killed by the Goblin king in a duel, we both called epic strike, he beat me and rolled 3 times on the table and wounded my wraith twice and killed 2 models. Sometimes we see more than this, but our group has never had so many figs killed in a duel as you seem to have often.

Im fine with the rule the way it is because of the "EPIC" nature of the game, but if they make a change officially Id be fine with it either way.

Jobu · **Posted:** Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:05 pm

I guess faramir should have used his last two might, or better yet one of the other epics should have called a heroic fight to counter not faramir, poor use of might really. Your opponent wasted might calling a heroic duel with faramir with those other epics around, just call epic strike in this situation. Saving that might to boost faramir's dice roll instead in the inevitable duel roll. It could have ended with only 2 rolls on the duel table if faramir used his last 3 might.

If you are that upset with duels just house rule the effects.
example:
1-2 No effect.
3- Enemy formation suffers D3 automatic hits.
No effect on monsters.
4- Enemy formation suffers D3 automatic hits.
5 -Enemy Hero suffers one automatic hit.
Monster suffers one hit
6 -Enemy formation suffer D3 automatic hits
Enemy Hero suffers one automatic hit.
Monsters suffer 2D3 automatic hits instead.

Killerkatanas wrote:

Once again, I used this tactic to destroy an entire unit of three companies of Rangers of Ithilien, along with Danmrod, Madril, and Faramir, who were deployed in a ruined building!

I used Amdur this time, called an epic duel (faramir responded with a heroic duel and we rolled off, I won). I then called epic strike, (Faramir did the same). I rolled a 2 and a 6 to Faramir's 2. My total was 10 + 6 +1 to Faramir's 10 + 2.

This gave me 5 rolls on the duel table.

I rolled a 2,3,3,5,6,6 and ended up killing Faramir and 8 of his men. During the melee I made short work of the rest of them.

So not as nastly, but this tactic alone allowed me to wipe out one full compnay of troops before the melee began. It was only because of Faramir's Epic Strike ability that his unit was saved. If he was not there, or had he not called ES, the total would have been 5 (madril or faramir) +2, so a 7 to a 17, and I would have gotten 10 rolls on the table and most likely got 2 companies, and maybe even did enough damage to make it be removed from the board.

AGAIN, EPIC CHEESE!

Brian

BoromirofIpswich · **Posted:** Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:56 pm

Brian wrote

Quote:

Once again, I used this tactic to destroy an entire unit of three companies of Rangers of Ithilien, along with Danmrod, Madril, and Faramir, who were deployed in a ruined building!

I used Amdur this time, called an epic duel (faramir responded with a heroic duel and we rolled off, I won). I then called epic strike, (Faramir did the same). I rolled a 2 and a 6 to Faramir's 2. My total was 10 + 6 +1 to Faramir's 10 + 2.

This gave me 5 rolls on the duel table.

I rolled a 2,3,3,5,6,6 and ended up killing Faramir and 8 of his men. During the melee I made short work of the rest of them.

Why did Faramir call an heroic duel? He would have been better conserving his Might, and then increasing his score. That ways, if he was on full Might he could have raised his score by 3 to 15. That's only two rolls. On the 'Duel Table'.

Stephen

Xelee · **Posted:** Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:34 pm

Killerkatanas wrote:

Once again, I used this tactic to destroy an entire unit of three companies of Rangers of Ithilien, along with Danmrod, Madril, and Faramir, who were deployed in a ruined building!

I used Amdur this time, called an epic duel (faramir responded with a heroic duel and we rolled off, I won). I then called epic strike, (Faramir did the same). I rolled a 2 and a 6 to Faramir's 2. My total was 10 + 6 +1 to Faramir's 10 + 2.

This gave me 5 rolls on the duel table.

I rolled a 2,3,3,5,6,6 and ended up killing Faramir and 8 of his men. During the melee I made short work of the rest of them.

So not as nastly, but this tactic alone allowed me to wipe out one full compnay of troops before the melee began. It was only because of Faramir's Epic Strike ability that his unit was saved. If he was not there, or had he not called ES, the total would have been 5 (madril or faramir) +2, so a 7 to a 17, and I would have gotten 10 rolls on the table and most likely got 2 companies, and maybe even did enough damage to make it be removed from the board.

AGAIN, EPIC CHEESE!

Brian

'8 of his men' looks impressive, until you stop to reflect on how meaningless those casualites are in WOTR. I have about 148 individual models in my 1000pt Gondor army. My Angmar army actually has mnore than that and I haven't even got to the point of putting Orcs in it yet (soon, very soon). Those armies both have a legendary formation and, shock horror, Captains. Compared to that, the loss of 8 figures is pretty incidental.

Killerkatanas · **Joined:** Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:52 am **Posts:** 182

By the way, my opponent called epic duel in order to give him the +1 benefit on the roll. Since I had already called it against Faramir, there was no point for him to save his points. However, I guess he could have just accepted it and used his might after to decrease the rolls. He told me that he was hoping my rolls would fall short of killing Faramir, that he would survive, then on his next turn he would call the challenge and still have enough might to do another Epic Strike. Amdur would not have any points to counter. Sounds reasonable to me.

I'm simply trying to strengthen my point about the ability of this rule to be used for devestating affect that simply is not what I believe the authors invisioned. If more complain then I am sure it will be fixed.

But really, this rule really has its problems with the ability to call epic strike. If that rule was changed so that it was only used in melee, then I think this problem would be solved.

Brian

Heroic Duels - Is a game breaker!

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