Not sure what this has to do with the betrayer. And you tactic is easily dealt with, kill off all your support, leaving you phalanx surrounded and trapped.

I agree: I would need a serious Shield Wall phalanx if I took Betrayer instead of the usual ShadowLord. My Watchers of Karna would get chewed up otherwise, with their pitiful defense. Easterling Pikes are tempting...shooting from behind D6 shields as I march across the field, then on the charge, the Pikes fall back behind a spear, to give my Watchers 4 attacks. Got to play test this. But allying is so expensive...just 10 shield/pikes and Easterling Captain w/ shield is 155 points. Alternatively, those 155 points could buy 31 human shields...

So: still on topic for how to Build Me an Army Worthy of poor, under-appreciated Betrayer... Which is better: 10 D6 shields (with pikes), or 31 Harad meat shields?

Those 31 additional troops let me massively increase my Watchers bow numbers. And three rows of ten Meat Shields should stop that annoying In The Way tactic of targeting the guy behind the shield. I am leaning this way... Might be time to post on Army Help.

Meat shields! It increases your breaking point and you'd have a better chance of doing damage with the 31 models than with the 10 shields. They would die faster than they could be of any use. If the pikes were supporting Watchers, they would just be shot by archers leaving the pikes exposed.

I remember reading a Battle Report written be Simmuskhan where his opponent (I believe it was his brother) used the Betrayer very well mounted on a horse. With increased mobility, he took out key models with Black Dart and aided Haradrim Raiders in getting kills. He always faced Dwarves so the extra re-roll/ increase ability thing really helped in taking out dwarves. Even managed to kill a Vault Warden shield bearer if my memory is correct.

Hope that helps with the discussion.

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My WIP page: Click Here! -->So It Begins

Current Project: Ringwraiths - Haradrim - Mumakil

I agree with the meat shields sentiment. In my experience, you can easily run a D4-5 army without Shadowlord, if you have sufficient numbers. I would go as far to say that the Shadowlord is a waste in 70+ model armies. Pump up your model count, and it'll be far less of a problem.

Having said that, I'm not personally a fan of the Betrayer (I far prefer the Undying), and I don't know many people who have really made him work. If I were to give some advice, I'd say mass shooting, as opposed to fewer but more accurate shots, is the key to getting the most from him. You need Serpent Guard to benefit from his role up close, and given their points, you would get more out of normal Harad Archers. A solid bank of 20 with spears and the Betrayer would be a pretty effective way to go about it I would imagine.

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lotrchampion

I have sort of corrected you, as the Betrayer doesn't affect Harad Raiders (unless they have bows too which is wasteful), only Serpent Riders.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Raiders with bow isnt wasteful... infact its very clever. Move 5 and shoot while behind your men, then pop out and lance the anoying boils when needed.

Especially against the dwarves. Their stumpy little legs won't let them catch the Raiders, and the poisoned arrows ought to bring them down faster.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

I'm pretty sure they were Raiders. I'll have a look through the Battle Reports again to make sure.

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My WIP page: Click Here! -->So It Begins

Current Project: Ringwraiths - Haradrim - Mumakil

I still don't think cavalry with bows are good in SBG (although they're better in SBG than in WOTR) And Dwarves have so high a defennce you need better than 6s to wound anyway, so although they can do more damage, its still not much compared to others.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

I find Harad Raiders with bows and lances are great. Especially when combined with an equal number of serpent riders. Normally some of an all cavalry horde won't get into combat... with this formation it doesn't matter so much.

The LOTR universe is so altered with Warbands. Now Betrayer is the looking better, with VenomBlade Knights, at least. Playtested a Karna host with bows: still had to roll 6's to wound and that poison re-roll managed to kill just one guy the whole game. The 6" range of Betrayer is not handy with different goal scenarios like Domination: can't keep everyone together. Karna were much more effective in close combat. Even though their D4 got them mauled against S4 opponents. I had 18 bows at 3+ accurancy, and did so much less damage than I hoped the new Scorpion Sting 1/2 bows rule would do. I'll play it more and hope for better rolls, but I am sorely tempted to settle for 1/3 bows and ally in some decent defense.

Opinions?

I had calculated the % change of a archer hitting a killing a defense 6 and defense 7 target when was thinking of buying the Betrayer. I don't remember the exact numbers but I can safely tell you that the Master of Poisons rule is a waste. The increased probability for D7 targets was about 1,8% if I remember correctly and for D6 it was around 3%. People tend to over value the ability but if you come to think about it you first need to roll 4+ to hit. Then on a 6 you wound a D6 target, but in case you roll 1 or 2 on the wound chart, you still need to subsequently roll a 6. That's 1/3 times 2/11 which if you calculate it produces a grim chance to wound. Making, the not so, long story short, Master of Poisons rule doesn't actually influence anything.

Well, let's see: 1/2 (to hit) * 1/6 (to wound against D5 and D6) = 1/12 chance to kill = 8.33%. 1/2 * 7/36 (chance to wound with poison ability, by my calculation) = 7/72 chance = 9.72% chance. That's a difference of 1.38%. With the Betrayer: 1/2 * 2/9 = 11.11%. That's a 1.39% increase in damage output over standard poison and 2.77% over standard bows, assuming that this is only against D5 and D6. (For poison I did 1/6 * 1/6 + 1/6 or chance to reroll*chance to wound+chance to wound. The Betrayer was 1/3 * 1/6 + 1/6) A Watcher of Karna starts out with a 12.96% chance of killing a D5 or D6 opponent. So basically, it would be MUCH better to get alot of Watchers than to get the Betrayer.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Yes, the Betrayer's poison rule for archers is rubbish. However, he is still very good, because of his Bane of Kings rule. If a Betrayer on Fell Beast charges and wins a fight, he'll be getting six Strength 6 attacks to wound, and he can re-roll all of them.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

Having used the Betrayer and finished 2nd at a UKGT with him I support General Elessar's post completely. His rule for archers (or other troops) is a waste of time, only useful if you really have nothing better to do - ie. the first few turns of the game. His Bane of Kings however makes him a flying, magic casting Spider Queen and if used properly it means he's an insanely powerful tool in your army. 1 bad move by your opponent and he loses every captain. 1 bad move by your opponent and he might even lose Aragorn-level hero, while at the same time other wraiths on Fell Beasts have about a 50/50 chance of killing a mere captain and will barely ever kill off a super hero. Betrayer is THE combat wraith and in the new rules his value increased because he allows a band to be taken, so if we consider that you would have to have a captain, a foot version of Betrayer is effectively just 75 points and if you're on Fell Beast then you're paying 120 and the FB is free. Bargain and absolute must in new rules in great majority of cases

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

Hello, the topic sign up link says that the page no longer exists.

Can I revive a very old thread and start a new topic?

If so, can we talk about rangers?

Thanks,

LordElrond

What do you want to talk about?

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Fight! Fight to the last man!

If this was to be our end then I would have them make SUCH AN END as to be worthy of remembrance

Rangers?

What aspect about them I mean.

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Fight! Fight to the last man!

If this was to be our end then I would have them make SUCH AN END as to be worthy of remembrance

Also, do you have a specific set of Rangers you are most interested in discussing? The Grey Company, for example, is different enough from Rangers of Gondor to justify two separate discussions (and don't throw Dwarf Rangers in there!).

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

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