Where od you stand on WYSIWYG?

The Horde Lord · **Joined:** Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:58 pm **Posts:** 301

Hilbert wrote:

I am very strict about this rule, what you see is always what you get... Probably because my country also is very strict about it

May I ask which country?

cereal_theif · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:33 pm

Well the books assume everyone has a hand weapon, if gw cant be bothered to model them on who am I to argue... other than that I am VERY strict in tournaments but fairly easy going if prepping for tournaments (so we can test ideas without having to carry loads of blue tac and spears n shields around)

The Horde Lord · **Joined:** Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:58 pm **Posts:** 301

cereal_theif wrote:

Well the books assume everyone has a hand weapon, if gw cant be bothered to model them on who am I to argue... other than that I am VERY strict in tournaments but fairly easy going if prepping for tournaments (so we can test ideas without having to carry loads of blue tac and spears n shields around)

Sure testing and playing with newbs are OK, but this game is 8000 points

Hilbert · **Joined:** Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:07 am **Posts:** 2088

It is Greece

Caputo · **Joined:** Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:29 am **Posts:** 40

Hilbert wrote:

I am very strict about this rule, what you see is always what you get... Probably because my country also is very strict about it

The police come round and arrest you if your army isnt WYSIWYG???

Hilbert · **Joined:** Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:07 am **Posts:** 2088

No,but even for one model, you are not allowed to play

SeveredHead · **Joined:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:40 pm **Posts:** 57

Being new myself, my collection is growing slowly and I appreciate players who will allow reasonable WYSIWYG. When I donot have the correct representation, I tag a figure with 2 mini-stickers - 1 in the front and 1 in the back of the base. Because I am the player with the problem, I take the effort to ensure that the other player(s) are easily reminded of the "out of normal" conditon. I also provide a printed sheet stating the meaning of the sticker(s) for which figure and how many there are in the game. I only do this if it is just a matter of adding shield/two-handed weapons/bow, simple stuff. I have played with players who are strict about WYSIWYG and in that case, I have chosen to use a different force.

In the end, it is a matter of what the players agree to in the beginning and having an enjoyable game.

If WYSIWYG that important to you, pick a different opponent who agrees. The decision is up to you in the end and you are the one who has to live with your decision.

Best Wishes,

SeveredHead

Caputo · **Joined:** Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:29 am **Posts:** 40

Hilbert wrote:

No,but even for one model, you are not allowed to play

Seems a tad harsh, but when in Rome (or Athens in this case)....

Hilbert · **Joined:** Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:07 am **Posts:** 2088

Well I don't have a promblem myself at a friendly match but at tournaments you have to follow the rules

SeveredHead · **Joined:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:40 pm **Posts:** 57

I agree -- friendly game okay, but not at tournament.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:33 pm

If it's the difference between hand weapon and 2handed weapon, I don't care. However, if someone says that they're gonna use they're archers as shieldmen, with no bows, I have a problem. Same with using shields as Vault Wardens.

Raukov · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:59 pm

I'm fine with whatever, basically, as long as I know what's going on. If someone has a bunch of metal minis that come in limited poses and they want to use them all as if they were armed like the majority (eg "all my dunlendings have shields"), fine, provided they tell me.

Draugluin wrote:

However, if someone says that they're gonna use they're archers as shieldmen, with no bows, I have a problem. Same with using shields as Vault Wardens.

Yeah, prettymuch this.

Highlordell · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:49 pm

The Horde Lord wrote:

He constanlty uses Durin as Dain since he got Balin in the Kazad box, I am completly fine with this since it's about saving money, not points. He also has a plastic Gimli which sometimes represent an additional Iron Guard or Ballista Crew member. I am also fine with this since it's not about maxing your army, it's about saving money.

Blackknight1239 wrote:

I mean, how am I suppose to model Elven warriors with hand weapons and shields properly? As much as WYSIWYG is a really useful tool, it starts falling apart when you have to put a lot of work into models just to get them a certain way (and a really basic way, might I add).

You're not supposed to. Elves are not supposed to have shield and hand weapon. If you're willing to trough convertion and put in an effort, I'd be fine. Like WoMT are not supposed to have bow and spear, but if you're willing to put in an effort, I'd be fine. Haradrim are not supposed to come with just hand weapons, it's either bow or spear, but if your'e willing to put on an effort, fine.

Here are some other examples from my gaming group. One guy uses a lot of wood elves, but use the same [word deleted] (IMO) that the dwarf player use. Don't buying the glavies, which his guys are equiped with. (Note that I am completly fine with cloaks and throwing dagger, since they can't be seen anyway). This buggs me because it's a point saver as well.

I my self have deprived my warg riders of shields, because I needed the shields for Mordor Uruks and Gothmog (ft and mt). (Where the other shields are I don't know at the moment). WhenI don't have enough orcs with spear or shield, I fill up with orc's with 2h weapons (and actually buy them).

Rant over

I'm not [word deleted] at you guys or anything, it's just that...

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. From what I can see you know suddenly approve of your friend using similar Dwarves as proxies, and yet if another guy does the same thing with Wood Elves it's not acceptable, its not his fault there is no model for a Wood Elf without an Elf Blade. It doesn't seem to affect you in anyway if he tells you beforehand.

And also, why are you apparently not 'supposed to' have Elves with Shield and Hand Weapon?
It's an option in the rules, so why can't Blackknight take them?

Just because a certain wargear layout doesn't have a model doesn't mean you're not supposed to use it...it just means GW are incompetent.

Leonardis · **Joined:** Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:06 pm **Posts:** 891

for me it's a case of getting someone to play... anyone... as long as the figures aren't too far from what the are, I don't mind :¬) If i worried about WYSIWYG too much I wouldn't play!

typhoon2 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:24 pm

I tend to play large battles (hundreds of models per side) and with highly-variable orders of battle. This often leads to gaps in my collection should I want to try out new troop types or heroes that I don't possess. I've used seven Gimli models in a game before now, with the plastic two hand weapons version being the real Gimli and the others representing Shieldbearers. My opponents were advised of this, they agreed, and now Shieldbearers are known (and feared) as 'Fake Gimlis'. On the other hand, my co-commander once deployed a Goblin Captain that was pretending to be Durburz and forgot to keep reminding the opposition. It came as quite a shock to find the King of the Goblins running amok where they'd only expected a minor hero...

WYSIWYG is an aspiration, and - as others have stated - if it gets in the way of a good game then ignore it. It's important to keep reminding opponents of changed figures, even to the detriment of one's own tactics, since that's only fair. I've encountered Orcish bagpipers and Elven bass guitarists on the battlefield but happily accept that they're representing Hornblowers and the game goes on.

The Horde Lord · **Joined:** Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:58 pm **Posts:** 301

Highlordell wrote:

The Horde Lord wrote:

He constanlty uses Durin as Dain since he got Balin in the Kazad box, I am completly fine with this since it's about saving money, not points. He also has a plastic Gimli which sometimes represent an additional Iron Guard or Ballista Crew member. I am also fine with this since it's not about maxing your army, it's about saving money.

Blackknight1239 wrote:

I mean, how am I suppose to model Elven warriors with hand weapons and shields properly? As much as WYSIWYG is a really useful tool, it starts falling apart when you have to put a lot of work into models just to get them a certain way (and a really basic way, might I add).

You're not supposed to. Elves are not supposed to have shield and hand weapon. If you're willing to trough convertion and put in an effort, I'd be fine. Like WoMT are not supposed to have bow and spear, but if you're willing to put in an effort, I'd be fine. Haradrim are not supposed to come with just hand weapons, it's either bow or spear, but if your'e willing to put on an effort, fine.

Here are some other examples from my gaming group. One guy uses a lot of wood elves, but use the same [word deleted] (IMO) that the dwarf player use. Don't buying the glavies, which his guys are equiped with. (Note that I am completly fine with cloaks and throwing dagger, since they can't be seen anyway). This buggs me because it's a point saver as well.

I my self have deprived my warg riders of shields, because I needed the shields for Mordor Uruks and Gothmog (ft and mt). (Where the other shields are I don't know at the moment). WhenI don't have enough orcs with spear or shield, I fill up with orc's with 2h weapons (and actually buy them).

Rant over

I'm not [word deleted] at you guys or anything, it's just that...

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. From what I can see you know suddenly approve of your friend using similar Dwarves as proxies, and yet if another guy does the same thing with Wood Elves it's not acceptable, its not his fault there is no model for a Wood Elf without an Elf Blade. It doesn't seem to affect you in anyway if he tells you beforehand.

And also, why are you apparently not 'supposed to' have Elves with Shield and Hand Weapon?
It's an option in the rules, so why can't Blackknight take them?

Just because a certain wargear layout doesn't have a model doesn't mean you're not supposed to use it...it just means GW are incompetent.

I think you're misunderstaning in your first paragraph. The two dwarf exapmles provided here are money-savers, while the elven example and the previously mentioned dwaven example are IMO cheesy point-savers.

It doesen't mean that GW is incompetent. Their boxing is part of the game balancing and movie/book authensity moves. If you have played for long enough to remember the old rules you (ten years maybe) would now that previously the equippinment rules where quite different.

simmuskhan · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:49 pm

So you think all dwarves should have to have two handed weapons unless they have a shield or bow? No dwarves with just hand weapons?

Caputo · **Joined:** Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:29 am **Posts:** 40

The Horde Lord wrote:

It doesen't mean that GW is incompetent. Their boxing is part of the game balancing and movie/book authensity moves. If you have played for long enough to remember the old rules you (ten years maybe) would now that previously the equippinment rules where quite different.

Um, No. The boxing GW chooses is about flogging their models,maximising their profits and so forth. If the particular weapon option or combination is allowed under the relevant army book then it is completely legitimate to use it, regardless of whether models are available or not. There are cases to be made in terms of background history such as not fielding gil galad and dain ironfoot in the same army (for example) but I would surprised (or astonished) if you can provide examples from the work of Tolkien that prove that, picking an example, no Dwarf went off to fight carrying only his trusty hand weapon.

simmuskhan · **Posted:** Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:28 am

Interesting you should use Tolkein there for the dwarves.
In "The Hobbit" it's mattocks for the battle dwarves, the main company use mostly daggers and swords etc.
In the main writings you get lots of detail about Gimli, but you'd not really be assuming that he was representative of them all.
It's also unclear that the axes they used were all two handed. There's precious little in the actual texts.
Now the movie, on the other hand, has more detail in it, and I guess the game is more based on the movies than the books.
In any case, we know that the dwarven smiths made lots of swords etc. too, as well as shields.
I can't find any text in Tolkein that suggests that the dwarves didn't all go off to battle with their trusty blunderbusses either.
All I'm saying is that if your friend doesn't want to use two handed axes, I don't see why he has to. Personally I like the versatility of having both hand weapon and two handed weapon, but I can see why you might not want to, and I don't know where to begin making your own dwarves with only a hand weapon given the models available.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:22 am

Actually, it's said many times that the dwarves favored axes over swords.

Where od you stand on WYSIWYG?

Who is online