Sorry I missed the intro to this. I am sort-of around but am on vacation until mid-June. I am still checking in for some work-related stuff as well as keeping up with my online classes, but my attendence here is very sporadic.

If someone further down the host list is able to take the next topic I would be very happy to step in again after the 15th. If no one else is ready then I can try thouh I don't have access to most of my books and notes.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

No problem, this is still a hobby, right?

In fairness to Beowulf03809, I'm going to suggest that we move up another topic. I'll contact the host and see who is ready to jump in and host, otherwise I will throw in an interim topic and we'll restart the "Reinforcements" topic after June 15th.

Again, my apologies for the confusion and thank you all for the great discussions so far.

Back to work...

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Curunír
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Perhaps this would be a good chance to revisit some of the older topics which did not have many replies? Or I could always give Jack a call and we could swap around the 'Easterling' and 'Reinforcements' discussions.

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Brush licking is for better painters.

Just a quick note to say that the topic has changed and rather than reposting the Topic Header I have adjusted it for the New Topic of Tactics for Siege Weapons. Thank you Lupino for jumping in at the last minute and thank you joe for the offer to help out as well.

Again, sorry for the confusion and for understanding, so lets get on with it!

Cheers

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Curunír
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Artillery is the king of the battlefield, and siege weapons are the closest thing we have to it right about now. If used incorrectly, a siege weapon turns into a hunk of expensive, useless trash if you don't use it right. However, if used properly, it more than makes up for its/their points.


ABT:avenger bolt thrower
BCT:Trebuchet/Trebuchet equivalent
MSB:Siege Bow/Ballista equivlent


Some tips for using siege weapons:

1. Deploy on an easily defended area with vantage of the entire field.
ABT: within your battle line
BCT: In table-corners (scenario/terrain pending)
MSB: on the flanks

2. Pick your shots. Siege shots Will scatter, and if there's a bunch of orcs hanging around, shoot them, not the solitary troll coming at you, because it will most likely miss. Go for the shot(s) that you think will hit the most enemies, and not the lucky shot.
ABT: Infantry lines and clusters
BCT: Infantry lines and clusters
MSB: Infantry lines, or maybe clusters.

3. Protect the crew members.
Remember, if you have 3 crew and 2 die, you can't fire nearly as often as usual, and if you bring in a helper, you make matters worse by hitting on a six. now that you've spent the points, you may as well protect the investment.
ABT:Extra crew, "bodyguards" for the machine, or distractions.
BCT:Extra crew, devoted archer squad to take out all comers.
MSB:High defensive meat wall.

Be sure you absolutely need the siege weapon. If you're playing a small game, drop the idea already, because you will most likely lose. Field them when there's stuff to shoot without much impairment.

Tricks

Hammer+Anvil (ABT+MSB)
Get an elite or heavily armored unit into position, about at a 45 degree angle to the siege weapon. When a group of enemies runs in to engage, shoot out the spears by targeting one and moving down the line. The elites take care of the rest.

Hammer+Hammer
You can also use your siege weapon to "move" your enemy around the board, scaring them into a favorable position, and moving in for the kill. Note this will probably only work on very "sensitive" armies, (namely W'elves and Harad) as their infantry aren't very, um, protected. Also target heroes and characters for some meta-game flavor.

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OR's secret stealth poster since 9/09.

the problem with seige weopons is there powerful but if yoou spread your formation he can pick you off with archery.

ive found volly fire is very effective in disrupting if not taking out seige weopon crew

also if you get a direct hit with any large ones (trebuche) it hurts

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From The Lowest Dungen To The Highist Peak I Fought Him The Fell Balrog Of Morgoth

Gandalf,The Two Towers

I have had the use of smaller seige engines in battles and found them incredibly useful. Recently, I was using my new dwarf ballista. It was a very useful tool for scattering the enemy formation (piercing shot) and tactically it meant that I had complete missile control over parts of the batttlefield. Of course it managed quite a lot of kills.

When trying to attack seige engines I would say that the best method is to try and make use of cover and wheel a group of cavalry around to flank your opponent's seige weapon(s). More often that not, your opponent will try and protect his crewmen by deploying the seige engine near some suitable cover so that the seige engine can shoot, but its crewmen can't be shot at.

If you lack cavalry, then you will have to try and volley fire with archers to hit the crewmen. From experience I have found that attacking the actual seige engine is not effective.

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Brush licking is for better painters.

Good tips so far, to keep this organized I figure we'd start out with siege bows and work it from there.

Light siege engines are good in that they're cheap enough to be worked into a normal battle without crippling your forces, and can be used in numbers for sieges. For 500pts, one is usually enough to cause damage without sacrificing troop numbers. However, there are a few things you should keep in mind when deploying them for normal ground battles and sieges:

1. Keep Target Priority in Mind
The first thing that should be on your list to kill are, of course, other siege engines. You don't suffer from Scattering and the high strength shots are enough to counter siege engine defense.

The last thing that should be on your kill list are individual models. Siege bows are not sniper rifles, and with a typical one-shot bow you have a one in twelve chance of getting a direct hit on your target. That's a lot of shots wasted, especially if that target is by itself.

Instead, your primary target after siege engines should be large groups of enemy troops, and if there's a particular model you want to kill that's among a large group all the better. In this way, the number of wasted shots goes down dramatically, as even a roll of 2-5 on the Scatter chart means you're still hitting something; the chances of a hit are five in twelve now, and if you happen to get that 6 then bully for you. Plus with rules like Piercing Shot, you're effecting even more models now and disrupting enemy formations.

2. Keep upgrades to a minimum
Siege bows are expensive already, there's no need to waste more points on them. First, think twice about Siege Engine Captains. For a normal battle, you're wasting a good chunk of your points limit for something that has limited effect on the actual shooting, and if you're using the engine correctly (aiming at large groups) you won't need Might to adjust the shooting. In a Siege they're a bit more useful, but again you're paying an awful lot for limited gain; for the same price you could afford a second light siege engine. Obviously, avoid Flamming Ammunition and other upgrades that only effect Siege targets if you're not in a siege. Swift Reload is a must for Gondorian bolt throwers to ensure you're getting the most shots out of the engine, and definitly, definitly buy at least one more crewman for the engine.

3. Proper placement is key
In a normal battle, light seige engines have a much more limited ranged then most bows, and every turn moving it is a turn spent not bringing pointy death to the enemy. Ideally, putting the engine in cover and difficult terrain will protect it from return fire and sorties trying to cripple it. Forests, rocky hills, and ruins already provide good anchors to cover your army's flank, and a siege engine will help discourage the enemy further.

For apparent reasons, the siege bows work best with and against static armies, since they will be forced to move less either to keep up with you or the enemy. However, even if the enemy simply moves to avoid the siege engine, that's a positive outcome as well, as you're forcing the enemy to move his troops on your terms.

For a siege, it's different, since most of your targets are either not moving or moving towards you! Putting a Siege bow atop a tower gives it good protecting and field of fire, especially if it's a Siege tower you're pushing towards the enemy wall. If you don't have a Siege tower to push, use the same guide for fighting normal battles, by putting the bow in terrain that can protect it.

Lupino, I'm really glad you took up this topic!

I recently picked up a Dwarven Ballista, so I'm finding the tactics described here very useful. It sounds like just having a siege weapon on the table can hinder an opponent's approach. Most opponent's will probably spread out their formations and also try to avoid the siege weapons field of fire. If they spread out too much they could make themselves vulnerable to a concentrated attack on one side.

Ditto! This is turning out to be a very informative subject and thanks again for jumping in.

NOOOO!
Will the humiliation ever end! Next time we meet in battle I hope not to be the receiver of Dwarven siege craft.

Back to work...

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i recently got done by 2 avengers in a 1500 points game. i would advise against charging cavalry straight at them

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The darkness of Moria you say? Nothing compared to the mess in my bedroom!

For the larger siege engines, avoid them for less then 750 points. The only time you should ever, ever take them for less then that is if you're fighting in an actual siege. These things are horribly expensive for relatively little gain, and should only be taken if you have a buffer of troops that could compete well on their own to begin with. Even then, to get more then one would be foolish. If you want a battery of trebuchets raining death on your enemy, wait for battles where your opponent could afford the Balrog, Sauron and a Dragon and still have some points left over for the cannon fodder; at that point, you'd probably need them anyways.

1. Target Priority
Same as the light siege engines, siege targets > masses of troops > lone figures. Your kills are going to be somewhat mitigated by the fact that you scatter over a much wider area, and ergo your opponent will have to the chance to deligate the shot to some little cannon fodder standing by himself (hint for those facing siege engines). However, hitting a squadron of troops is going to cause massive casualties; unless the Dice Gods (praise be thine name) are cruel to you, Str10 shots will wipe out most everyone, along with the insta-kill on the actual target.

2. Upgrades
Avoid Superior Construction at all cost. You might think "oh, but my range is only 48 inches" but you're wrong. You already Volley Fire, which means your range is doubled to 96 inches. Most tabletops barely half as wide as that, and unless you're playing on board the size of a small room, you will not be out of range of anything. Do get Severed Heads; you're causing the enemy wounds and forcing them to take Courage checks or flee, for an almost brokenly cheap price. Trolls are also nice if you can afford it, since you double your shots, but on a regular battlefield that Troll is more often then not better spent bashing some poor Dwarf's head in with his maul.

3. Placement
As far back as you can; you can hit anything anywhere on the board, and you do not want to make the enemy's attempt to kill your crew any easier. If it's a siege and you're defending, all the more easy, since you can safely plant them behind a wall and lob missiles with ease at the opponent without return fire; no need for putting them atop a wall or tower and letting the assault force have a chance to knock it out. If you're the assaulter and cannot keep your stone-throwers out of range of theirs, plant them behind some terrain of your own, or bear the brunt of the artillery fire and try knocking down a wall as quickly as you can.

Hmm, to spur on a little more discussion, let's open it up to the last subject, misc. siege engines. Ladders, rams, siege towers, bombs, and anything else I might have forgotten. Obviously some of this stuff wouldn't have much worth outside a siege (except perhaps the bomb) so what are your thoughts?

Hmmmm, well, I think thats enough inspiration to get a dwarf ballista, or make one. I think I like what I hear about them.

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DOUBLE WOOTAGE....erm, yeah.

I would NOT purchase a bomb unless in a siege becase who can't run 4 cm in 1 to 2 turns.

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i agree with mask rider they are pretty useless apart from sieges
in sieges be sure to keep your bomb form the bulk of your amry because you risk blowing up most of your army.

Time to wrap this topic up. Very well done and many thanks to Lupino for doing a fine job as host. Any last comments on siege weapons?

Back to work...

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Curunír
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Yep: aim them at mumaks

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"You tit! I soiled my armor, I was that scared!" - Sir Robin the Brave, Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail"

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The current host is Beowulf03809 and the current topic is...
Tactical talk about "Reinforcements" as used in scenarios.

Topic Description: If you are a frequent player of scenarios, then you may have been confronted at one time or another with the set up situation of having to keep some of your forces in reserve to be used later as "reinforcements". The current topic will focus on various aspects of this tactical challenge.


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The Continuous Tactical Discussion Thread (CTD) has changed to a rotating host/subject format. New Topics will now be suggested by active members, and the role of Host will be the responsibility of the person in charge of the New Topic. If you are interested in hosting a subject, please sign up by replying in the HOST/TOPIC LIST thread.

Happy discussions!

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Sorry for the delay. You caught me by surprise! I didn't expect the current to end so soon, but fate would have it on a day I work a double shift.

Ok...to get the ball rolling, there are several scenarios in LoME and the OR book that have one form of "reinforcements" or another. To have a reasonable discussion of these, let me set some basic guidelines.

First, assume a medium sized army. Usually between 500 and 750 points. Most players would have one major hero, one or two lesser heroes, a few elites and a large number of standard troops. Size would generally range from the 35+ to 60 models.

For the first discussion, let's look at the rule used in Clash of PIcquets and a couple others.. You select one half of your force ( in models, not points) and deploy them on the first turn. The other half comes in on future turns based on dice rolls. Each turn following, there is a chance future models will not come in, or may come in on your side of the table but placed by your opponent or, if you're lucky, come in on your side of the table where you want it.

The discussion I'm interrested in seeing would focus on these topics:

1. Do you put your primary hero on the board first and risk his exposure for a while, or do you hold him back until things are "safer" and risk he may not arrive soon enough?
2. Do you bring all your Elites ( Trolls, Sentinels, Guard, etc.) on the board right away or prefer to bring on more standard warriors to have greater numbers?
3. If you have enough archers for volley fire, do you even bother trying this considering 10+ archers would take up most of your starting model allotment or do you just accept that you will probably not volley in this scenario?
4. Do you bring on your calvary now and hope to jump the enemy early or bring them on later with the thought that their greater move will allow them to catch up to the initial deployment of foot troops?
5. Any other notes or deciding factors I may not have thought of here?

Obviosly some of these answers will be based on what type of army you take, how much calvary you have, etc. Feel free to put in some of that. I doubt there is any "right" answer to any of this but I'm sure some themes will arise that many of us use. I'll give a little time for others to reply first before I post some of my thoughts.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com