Hi fellas,
I have a Gondor army and have had Aragorn in my army since I started playing, My questions is do you think my points would be better spent takin g "the three hunters" instead of aragorn as a single model?

Well Aragorn as a single model can join formations, and honestly, i think would be better than the three hunters. I find the three hunters, whilest pretty good, aren't as good as they could be, in an army where you can take Aragorn individually.

I found this unit to be completely worthless. It only has a resistance of 3 and has no "Hard-to-Kill" traits.

Frankly, the three die too easily. Chances are that in any combat with a company-sized element, that someone in the group will die. It only takes 3 hits to kill one of them, and 9 to wipe out the unit.

I think this is a major flaw in the game, so I would stick with using the hunters as seperate Epic Heroes. They will last much longer.

Brian

@killerkatanas, you are almost 3 years too late.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
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I use the Aragorn three hunters model with my rangers seems to tie in quite nicely

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"His people were of great strength and stature, bold and steadfast, mighty among the Children of Ilúvatar."

So my group played the Dol Guldur scenario from White Dwarf 374. The game only lasted 3 turns and ended in a, very lucky, White Council victory. The game brought up some of the same problems which were expressed with the Three hunters: their lack of hard-to-kill or very-hard-to-kill modifiers.

As the White Council player, I chose to place the council right in the front, advanced a full move and did a "at the double." The move put me in the very lead of the army, and since I had priority I was able to get off some good spells that prevented the enemy from charging me or firing at me.

Yet this did not stop the Nazgul, four of whom were on Wraiths, from doing swooping attacks--and killing two of the Council on turn one.

See, with every 3 hits a character is removed from the council.

Luckily I got priority again, and Gandalf was able to bring back one character with a lucky roll of six for Blessing of the Valar (I rolled a five +1 might). Again I was able to stop the main charges and then get within 12" range of Dol Guldur to drive the Necromancer out. With that done, there is no real need for the Council anymore, since anyone has the ability kill the Necromancer.

The amount of spells aimed at the Council was staggering-- four black darts, several visions of woe, which made my courage a minus 10! I lost another character.

On turn three I lost the priority, so there was no chance of replacements. Again, the amount of spells aimed at the group was beyond my ability to shield them, but luckily I held out and forced the Necromancer to come forth and deliver the Coup de Grace--no more council!

However, it did place the Necromancer within range of our bows. Legolas bounced from his unit to a Galadrin Cavalry unit in range of the Necromancer, scored a hit with his "crippling shot", then Radaghast bounced to the elven bows, directed their fire, which loosed a hail of arrows (42 rolls) against the Necromancer. He was dead and the game won.

However, folks, this shows just how ridiculous these stats are. The Necromancer should have had some death table like a Balrog's. Likewise, without any hard-to-kill or very-hard-to-kill for the council, they are too easy to eliminate.

The point here is to ask, how have your groups dealt with this? Surely I think it is logical to give these particular formations the VH2Kill ability:

1. Three Hunters
2. Fellowship
3. White Council
4. Council of Wizardry
5. The nine
6. Twilight Ringwraiths

A little tip for you is that Blessing of the Valar brings back models, not Resilience points

There was a ruling at a GW hosted Game day a few years back in which the interpretation of this spell was as casualties (as in the case of rank-and-file), but this then extended so that it also meant hits of resilience. Most rank-and-file have 1 resilience, while heroes have 2 or more.

After learning this interpretation, my group has played it in this manner. Your Blessing of Valar is WAY TOO POWERFUL if is simply heals characters like that.

Woah! Hold on there killerkatanas.

Well great that you had a great game of WotR and did a cool scenario....! But some points regarding the survivability of special formations.

First of all as Hashut's Blessing points out Blessing of the Valar (BotV)returns 1d3 models not resilience points worth. So if even 3 of the four are killed, a 5-6 roll can bring all three dead fellows back if BotV is cast. It isn't overpowered when applied to the special formations as it gives exactly what you are asking for... survivability to the 'special' formations and eliminates any need for a special (unneeded) H2K rule. this is the only time it can be really used like this, it cant be used to bring back dead epics otherwise in regular formations. And cavalry are so squishy already. Plus it cannot bring back removed companies.

This has a profound effect on the survivability of magic wielding formations. The most extreme example, on which I have posted before is the fellowship formation, and the 'Gandalf the Necromancer' phenomenon. In which the hobbits and possibly boromir are removed first yet get returned via BotV.

Secondly, there is a subtle seeming yet significant way these magic wielding 'company of heroes' formations work compared to a normal hero spell caster:
a- The formation as a whole has a mastery level, which is reduced if a hero is killed. This means that you can only cast any spell *once* in a turn from that formation. So if Elrond is eliminated... then brought back via BotV, he cannot cast BoTV as well, as it is the formation casting the spells not the model.
b - It doesn't matter who is removed or present.. the formation will always have access to the listed spells. So the White council will always have wilderness, Command and Dismay.
c - A gandalf in a magic formation (fellowship or White council, or council of wizardry) will not have his special epic hero spell... aura of Blinding Light. Just as it seems odd that Epic Good Saruman has Ruin spells, but the White Council does not.

(apologies if this is spelling out the obvious but it leads in to a final thought and area of wooliness in the rules...)

The third thing that strikes me is when you say about the many Black darts being hurled at the White council. Now a formation with the 'company of Heroes' rule cannot have a named hero duelled.

Does this mean they can be targetted by Black Breath and Black Dart?

I don't think Black breath will work (or very well if at all)

Black dart? mm tricky. clearly the 'heroes' can't be singled out and duelled. But can they be targetted by a black dart? Possibly. The trouble that worries more than trying to assassinate a particular model in the group is the might points. The formation as a whole holds a 'pool' of Might. This pool is *not* reduced by eliminating a model. But a lucky roll on a Black dart on one hero might reduce it significantly for the other three, or the formation as a whole containing the Might?

My personal feeling would be to rule that Black Breath does nothing to these kinds of formation, and Black dart can be used to try and kill a hero, but will have no effect on Might of the formation as a whole.

======
Other points from your report ....

- Visions of woe is always courage test at -2, these do not stack with each other.
- If you meant Sunder Spirit was cast at the formation these apply a -1 (or on a 6 a -3) penalty to the Corage Characteristic. As it says in the rules, magic can never raise or lower any characteristic above 10 or below 0.
- The worst possible scenario is: having Courage reduced to 0 by multiple Sunder spirits, then having visions of woe cast at you and they get a '6' on the casting roll. This means a courage test on 1d6 with a -2 penalty.

===

So in answer to your suggestion that special formations have a VH2K ability:
Well The fellowship, The White Council and The council of Wizardry have access to Blessing of the Valour. which actually makes them tougher to kill. They still need a little coddling.. but if Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf and Saruman ambled out nonchalently in front of a 1000 screaming orcs... well they would be toast, similarly in WotR keep them a little protected.

The Nine are abroad. Are expensive but handy. All that Might makes them very survivable and the abilities combined make them very reasonable as an offensive formation too. I have taken them and dont think they need a special H2k rule. Also an interesting point The Nine's might is ALL with the WK. He CAN be duelled.

Twilight Ringwraiths. Ok Ok about the squishiest of any of these with resilience 1 and costing 150 points and no might. 3 companies of these cost nearly as much as the Nine abroad with nowhere near the reslience, abilities, or spells. This is basically a formation you only take when forced upon you by a scenario, or setting a game ina time when the wraiths are not in their full form.

And back to the original title of the thread:

The Three hunters. I take your point but they do have elven cloaks and are meant to be a support formation. at 175 they are not *too* bad for cost though of course the 'epic' versions are maybe 'better' But I think the three hunters can have a place in an army and not necessarily with an additional H2K rule. Screenn them and use them as theya re meant to in the films.. sneaking into position at key moments.

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Daersalon,

Assuming that the meaning of Blessings of Valar is as you say, then you are correct. However, my point is that at an official tournament the GW ruling by the referee was that is was a rule that brought back regular casualties (ie. rank-and-file troops) back to the formation. This meant that you could not bring any heroes or Epic heroes back.

The ruling then stated that you could bring back heroes and epic heroes at their resilience cost. Of course, this now meant that you needed to roll a 2 or 3 to bring back something with a resilience of two, and a 3 to bring back something with a resilience of three.

So I guess my group, in fact several members, from the States, have been playing this interpretation of the rule. Question is--which is correct?

And yes, the other side had four flying Nazgul (as per the scenario), so that was four Black Dart attempts, four Vision of Woe tests, and so on...so these do stack.

Actually we did not allow the black dart caster to pick a target in the White Council. The controller decided who took the hit because of the "Company of Heroes" rule. We do allow it to target specific characters without the "company" rule.

hehe KillerK.... By non-stacking I mean 4 VoWs are 4 separate test at -2, not a single 'stacked' test at -8 etc. Only the Sunder Spirit and similar deBuffs 'stack' together, I was just trying to figure out the -10 Courage you quoted in reference to VoW.

But you have opened up an interesting worm filled tin regarding BotV.

The RAW simply say that 1d3/1d6 casualties are returned. And you cannot return lost companies. This is regardless of resilience. There is no quibbling there, and it does not matter if it is infantry, cavalry or a 'special' formation.

The key question is indeed "Can an Epic Hero be returned via Blessing of the Valar?".

I think we need to look at the wording... it says 1d3/1d6 'casualties' of the formation. This means it could not be applied to epic heroes who just happen to be with the formation at the time (indeed if an epic is killed you have to leave a space in the company he was in, whereas a captain or shaman does have their space filled in by a model from the back)

So. I suggest Epic heroes may not be returned via BotV, but captains etc could...

In the 'special' formations, the heroes are not 'epics' but part of the formation and would be 'casulaties' (taken by the formation) as listed in the spell.


This interpretation does everything required I think: keeps the spirit of the spell in returning lost troopers, stops it being used to (overpoweringly) regenerate dead epic heroes, and gives the 'squishy' magical special formations a degree of survivability without need of a H2K or additional House ruled mechanic.

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Taking the War in Middle earth to a new level!

I worked at GW - doesn't mean I have any more authority than that tournament organiser. That ruling is 100% only for that tournament and is actually a house rule.

You cannot bring back dead Epic Heroes - you replenish a depleted company: removing an Epic Hero removes them from the (usually) the command company, not the wounded company.

You DO bring back D3 MODELS, not wounds, hits, casualties, resilience points or so on. There is no ambiguity in the rule and there is no FAQ (that I'm yet aware of) saying anything else.

Use it to your advantage

Argee! Otherwise you would need to roll 2(D3 3-4) to return 1 cavalry model

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"His people were of great strength and stature, bold and steadfast, mighty among the Children of Ilúvatar."