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WOTR 2nd Edition
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Author:  ElfGeneral [ Thu May 31, 2012 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  WOTR 2nd Edition
I don't know if this is the right place to post this (if it isn't could someone pleas point it out) but as it seems fairly WOTR centric I'm posting it hear

Basically WOTR has been out for a while now (according to the copyright on my version of the rulebook it's at least since 2009 but it might be later) and we have only had one version of the rules and a fairly incomplete FAQ. I was wondering when people think there will be a 2nd Edition if there ever will be, I haven't played these type of games very long and don't know how often new editions are brought out and was just wondering when people think it will be.

I am hoping it is around the time The Hobbit is released for a number of reason

1) New units, GW have released a number of units since the 1st Edition and their WOTR rules can only be found in the White Dwarf (I think, I don't actually get the magazine) and I assume they are going to bring out a slew of new models to coincide with the release of The Hobbit it would be insane on their not to (which I will try to guess at below) but they can't honestly expect people to resort to a number of different magazine from different years to find the rules for there models so I am hoping a new book will be release because of this

Possible Second Edition Models

Dwarves
I can't see them adding 13 heroes to the dwarf army list but I can see Thorin becoming an Epic and possible one other perhaps Gloin becoming what I call a glorified captain (like Thrydan, Haldir, Erkenbrand and Deorwine who don't cost much more or the same as a captain but are a little better). It is possible that Thorin will become a glorifed captian and there will be no other additions

Rivendell
Being the MASSIVE LOTR fan that I'am I know that in the first Hobbit film Rivendell will be shown in much greater detail than it was in the Fellowship of the Ring and as such I can see some form of Royal Guard type formation being released for High Elves (hopefully with good defence :) )

Mirkwood
Mirkwood will get actually get shown in these films rather than Elrond saying 'Legolas of Mirkwood' being it's only mention. As it stands Wood Elves only have two formations Normal Elves and Sentinels (which are a bit rubbish) so if the battle of the Five Armies is to be played out properly then we will need a slew of new wood elves, personally I think some ambushing units will be nice. Lastly there is Tauriel who I've never heard of before but as you can see from the description I copied from IMDB it sounds like she could be a new Epic or leader of a Legendary formation if GW wanted one

Tauriel is an original character created for Peter Jackson's theatrical adaptation of J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit. She is a Silvan Elf of Mirkwood Forest whose name means 'daughter of the forest' or 'maiden of the wood. (UPDATE) It seems that Tauriel is not a completely original character; she fills the role of the previously unnamed chief of the Wood-elf guards (who, in the book, was male).

Men of Lake Town
I can't see a new army list appearing here but perhaps them with similar stats to Rohan militia and Bard could join the Dwarf Army or the Forgotten Kingdoms

Eagles
As these are classified as there own army in the Battle of the Five Armies I can see a few more named eagles appearing

2) The hype created by The Hobbit will cause a spike in interest and sales of everything related to Lord of the Rings and GW will want to take us for every one of our hard earned pounds or dollars if they can

3) Battle of the Five Armies, this will be the first time that GW will be able to sell the idea of a huge battle like Helms Deep or Pelennor Fields but this time with a system that was built to deal with large battles rather than trying to convince people SBG will work on that large a scale. To this end it will be very difficult to explain why the MM (goblins) win everytime as loads of there units are undercosted or overpowered and why the Elves are so pathetic if the rules aren't changed.

Sadly the Hobbit film is split into two part and they are coming out a year apart from each other and I can see especially as the Battle of the Five Armies is in the second half GW postponing a 2nd Edition until the end of 2013 when the movie is released.

Any thoughts???
Author:  Bastion.HUN [ Thu May 31, 2012 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
Indeed, I think they will release a bunch of new figure after the Hobbit part1, but after the second part they create a whole new rulebook, maybe WOTR 2.0, maybe another rule system. I can't wait that time, cause I'm sure, a lot of new player will come, maybe from the younger generations.
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Thu May 31, 2012 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
I know the problem is the second film is released Nov. 2013 which is like 18 months away :(
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Thu May 31, 2012 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
There will be models, includin the Men of Dale. And all the cool Evil guys you forgot to mention; Smaug, Bolg and his army, new Spiders, etc...
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Thu May 31, 2012 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
I was planning on mentioning them just felt like I was rabbiting on a bit so stopped, also doesn't Bolg already have a mini. There are loads of minis like the Dweller in the Deep (no one in my group has one or knows the lore behind, what the hell is it), The Great Beast of Gorgoroth, Watcher in the Water, Warg Marauders and Ashrâk the Spiderkin I didn't mention that are already release but aren't in the 1st Edition
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Thu May 31, 2012 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
Bolg doesn't have a mini. In fact none of the Misty Mountanis heroes fronm the books have in-production minis, all we have is 4 GW-made up ones; Durburz, Druzhag, Groblog and Ashrak.

Also Dwellers are made up by GW.
Author:  Telchar [ Thu May 31, 2012 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
I hate to cast a shadow, but I think there will not be a new WOTR (for the first movie in any case), as it most likely will not have a big battle. There might be a second edition for the second movie, but I think there will be just a supplement with new profiles.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Thu May 31, 2012 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
I don't think there will be a WotR supplement at all. Profiles in WD will be the best it gets, if any.
Author:  Jamros [ Thu May 31, 2012 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
I'm not so sure there ever will be a 2nd edition of WotR. Retrospectively, War of the Ring seemed like Games Workshop's attempt to do something with the LotR range during a period when it had very much gone flat. GW needed a way to cash in on Lord of the Rings; the Hobbit film was supposed to have come out years ago, and without the fanfare of the films, GW wasn't really riding on a lot with their LotR license. Lord of the Rings probably still made a profit, and was a great advertising tool, but it was kind of just sitting there--a licensed Middle-earth, and the Strategy Battle Game itself, are much more limited and limiting than GW's own worlds of 40K or WHFB, respecitvely. So, I view War of the Ring as a cash-in; on the one hand, they give old veterans a chance to properly scale-up their games (SBG rules were prohibitive for mass battles) for $60, the cost of the rulebook--on the other hand, by shelving the Strategy Battle Game, they can milk n00bs interested in LotR minis by marketing massive armies under the WotR rules. That's not to say its a bad game--I love it. But it was a combined effort at addressing a problem with the SBG, and getting the most money out of addressing that problem.

I think we see now that WotR was a placeholder, until GW could reintroduce the SBG for the Hobbit. All of the encounters in the Hobbit--save the Battle of Five Armies--are perfect for SBG, and impossible for WotR. The re-organization of the plastic boxed sets really makes it clear that GW is very much stepping away from WotR and going back to SBG. Could we see a resurgence of WotR after the Hobbit films, or as part of the BoFA? From a marketing standpoint...I'd say no. Come December-and-on, there's going to be a new influx of fans who will be joining the hobby. Marketing two games for the same range to these new hobbyists makes no sense whatsoever. Any BoFA scenarios will likely be a large SBG battles, as per the old rulebook and Journeybook scenarios for the Siege of Helm's Deep, the Battle of Pelennor Fields, etc. I'm not even sure that any new profiles will ever be released for WotR, either. Its a really great game, but it never seemed to have enough support or popularity, and GW is hearkening back to SBG now.
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Thu May 31, 2012 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Bolg doesn't have a mini. In fact none of the Misty Mountanis heroes fronm the books have in-production minis, all we have is 4 GW-made up ones; Durburz, Druzhag, Groblog and Ashrak.

Also Dwellers are made up by GW.


I don't play MM and think I must have confused Gorblog with Blog :oops:
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Thu May 31, 2012 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
Jamros wrote:
I'm not so sure there ever will be a 2nd edition of WotR. Retrospectively, War of the Ring seemed like Games Workshop's attempt to do something with the LotR range during a period when it had very much gone flat. GW needed a way to cash in on Lord of the Rings; the Hobbit film was supposed to have come out years ago, and without the fanfare of the films, GW wasn't really riding on a lot with their LotR license. Lord of the Rings probably still made a profit, and was a great advertising tool, but it was kind of just sitting there--a licensed Middle-earth, and the Strategy Battle Game itself, are much more limited and limiting than GW's own worlds of 40K or WHFB, respecitvely. So, I view War of the Ring as a cash-in; on the one hand, they give old veterans a chance to properly scale-up their games (SBG rules were prohibitive for mass battles) for $60, the cost of the rulebook--on the other hand, by shelving the Strategy Battle Game, they can milk n00bs interested in LotR minis by marketing massive armies under the WotR rules. That's not to say its a bad game--I love it. But it was a combined effort at addressing a problem with the SBG, and getting the most money out of addressing that problem.

I think we see now that WotR was a placeholder, until GW could reintroduce the SBG for the Hobbit. All of the encounters in the Hobbit--save the Battle of Five Armies--are perfect for SBG, and impossible for WotR. The re-organization of the plastic boxed sets really makes it clear that GW is very much stepping away from WotR and going back to SBG. Could we see a resurgence of WotR after the Hobbit films, or as part of the BoFA? From a marketing standpoint...I'd say no. Come December-and-on, there's going to be a new influx of fans who will be joining the hobby. Marketing two games for the same range to these new hobbyists makes no sense whatsoever. Any BoFA scenarios will likely be a large SBG battles, as per the old rulebook and Journeybook scenarios for the Siege of Helm's Deep, the Battle of Pelennor Fields, etc. I'm not even sure that any new profiles will ever be released for WotR, either. Its a really great game, but it never seemed to have enough support or popularity, and GW is hearkening back to SBG now.


I don't really mind a huge amount if they don't make a second edition as long as they maybe make a supplement for all the new units which also addresses some of the issues such as undercosted units so all the army lists are competitive and more or less equal power wise
Author:  Jamros [ Thu May 31, 2012 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
ElfGeneral, I can't see them making an additional supplement for WotR either, at least not anytime soon. They're done with it; they aren't pushing the game anymore, so producing a new supplement would, from a business standpoint, be pointless. They're going to be pushing SBG, so to promote, produce, or advertise a WotR supplement would be counter-productive. GW would be competing with themselves and confusing new LotR hobbyists. They might do it--but I wouldn't count on it. Maybe some errata for rules balancing, and maybe a few White Dwarf articles with new WotR profiles, could be possible, but I really don't see that happening either.

That said, I don't think GW will "throw away" WotR. I could see a repeat LotR customer at a GW shop being introduced to WotR--"You've bought a lot of minis, you might want to try out this game for something new." Plus, several years down the road, when GW is struggling to innovate with their LotR range, they might re-introduce WotR all over again.
Author:  Valamir [ Thu May 31, 2012 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
Not to be a harbinger of doom, but I do agree with Jamros- WotR is great, but GW has most likely left it in the drink. Not for good, mayhaps, but definitely for the time being.
Author:  Killerkatanas [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
I read online that there is confirmation from Jackson that the first Hobbit film is going to show the assault on Dol Guldur by the White Council, so there may yet be a battle in the movie, and hope that GW will do some additional material for it.

If not, there is always fanbased material that can do done, much like those whom love the now defunct GW game Man o' War. Maybe even Special Games wil do something with it.

Brian
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
I have to say I disagree with both Valamir and Jamros, I think from a business point of view WOTR is great for GW and I don't think they have left it in the drink for one reason alone army size and points cost, for the same size army points wise in SBG you need considerable fewer models (and so less profit) GW is a public owned company with shareholders who expect to be paid dividends. It would be hard to explain to your shareholders why the company wouldn't try and sell the maximum number of models and make the largest amount of profit for this reason alone I think GW will stick with WOTR.

I didn't know that Dol Guldur would be in the first film but it does make sense as Smaug and BOFA will be in the second one it would make sense film wise so they can end it with a really BIG scene like Helms Deep rather than just have it end
Author:  Valamir [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
Your point is a good one, ElfGeneral- we shall see what they do with WotR.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
Nah, the most WotR this side of the BoFA is WD issues, at best. Mostly likely nothing. I don't think FotN will be shown as a full scale battle, and will just show Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Elrond and Galadriel defeating Sauron, and possibly Khamul.
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
Having looked into it I'm not sure about the FoTN for two reasons, first I stand by my point of ending the first film on a high with some form of fight scene to add to the drama and bring the film to a conclusion instead of just saying there you go come back for the conclusion in a years time. Second however, I watched a video of Christopher Lee talking about how he had already finished his part in the film about six month ago (Nov. 2011) which would suggest that the FoTN part of the film very brief and more like when Galadriel describes the Last Alliance whilst there was a fight going on behind her rather than like Pelennor Fields and Helms Deep. It is worth mentioning however that films are not always filmed in order and in some cases large battles are done early on in the process so the director has something big to show the investor and the company that is paying for the film that there millions of pounds of investment have actually gone into something tangible and worthwhile. It gives the CGI people time to do all the technological wizardry and things they need to do to turn a couple of actors and a green screen into a a full scale battle.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
Probably. Also, I found out that the first film will almost definately end somewhere in the Gollum scene, not FotN.
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR 2nd Edition
I had just assumed that they would end it with some action but there are a few action scenes in the film prior to this so it might not be necessary.

I have also realised as much as I'm arguing that GW will bring a 2nd Edition I neither go to my local GW nor get the White Dwarf, my gaming group has quite a few WOTR players and if we merge some of our models from armies we don't use (I have a few Rohan because I was planning on making Helms Deep army but then just focused on elves) we can usually make up another army or two so lots of people play WOTR even if they don't have an army of their own which gives me the impression that it is a very popular game but I don't actually know how much GW actually supports and advertises it in store. I did use to collect White Dwarf's but stopped about 2 years ago when I left the hobby for a bit and looking back over them it gets a reasonable amount of attention but as if Jamros argues it was just a filer until the Hobbit it might not have the same amount of support
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