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Gothmog, yet again!!!
https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=22172		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Stormcrow [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Gothmog, yet again!!!
So this thread is a continuation from the topic that started in the gollum thread.

The situation in our last game was this,
both sides wished to call epic actions, my opponent won the roll off and called epic duel with aragorn which gothmog then called back against aragorn for if he was to survive the duel. (Gothmog also called epic defence as I had to have an original action to call as i said i was planning on calling an epic/heroic action before the roll off).

The Duel! And the issue!
As my opponent won the roll of it was time for aragorn to duel gothmog! Aragorn called epic strike before the duel, I then said gothmog too would copy his epic strike.
My opponent felt that gothmogs imitation of epic strike would not be valid in the duel (im not sure why but as he is a heavy drinker and an aggressive drunk i didn't argue).

So the question is was he right, in my view gothmog can call it immediatly after aragorn calls it, as it says in the book, and then it have imediate effect. Am I wrong?

The game was resolved by gothmog spending a might point to call epic strike himself and then slaying Aragorn in the duel which was my game wining objective.

My opponent also thinks that if Aragorns duel failed to kill Gothmog that Gothmog can not duel back because the updated rules state that no formation can be affected by the same epic action more than once per turn. To me his view is wrong as Aragorns duel is against my formation and Gothmogs is against his, not both against his.
Or am I just wrong!

Thoughts please.
Author:  Telchar [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
I think you're right on both issues. The second you certainly are, and I always supposed (and have never seen anything to prove something else) that Gothmog can copy ES into a duel as much as he can copy any other epic action. If not so, then that's finally a weakening in the Khamul/Dwimmerlaik/Gothmog combo, and since GW seem to have decided that nothing may weaken this (does Matt Ward play Mordor?), I don't think so.

PS: If someone is an aggressive drunk, then don't play against him while he's drunk.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
First...seriously agree about staying away from anyone that can't manage their temper while drinking. Bad mojo. Especially in a competitive environment. I'm sure many here can give you far more reasons at so many different levels and points of reference than you can possibly imagine.

That being said...

Gothmog's Ultimate Special Rule of Doom allows him to "immediately" call the copy. So yes, he would have ES going into the Duel and you didn't need to waste a Might point doing that.

The fact that you can't have a formation effected by the same Epic action is to prevent two Epic Heroes in the same Formation from calling the same action (like getting two Epic Defense, or two Epic Rage). There is nothing to stop multiple enemy Formations all from calling their own Epic Rage and then stomping on a single Formation, or for two Epic Strike Heroes from calling it themselves and then each challenging the same enemy formation for example.

Either your opponent is not familiar with the rules very well or is trying to cheat. I'd like to think it's the first but you will need to decide.

On a side note, I'd recommend not playing Gothmog every time. If my opponent always showed up with him I'd turn to drink as well...or start playing him Mordor vs. Mordor.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
Chiming in with everyone else. As near as I can tell from your description of the event you were right in every way.

And find someone else to play with.
Author:  D0Cdeath [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
How can you say I'm aggressive ?? I hate you all that made me spill all my beer
Author:  Stormcrow [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
Hi,
thanks for all your comments guys, its really cleared things up.
Both me and my opponent have only been playing a short while so the odd rule still confuses us now and again but i think we are getting the hang of it now.
I agree on the thought of not playing Gothmog every time as I like to put a bit of variety into my army, but its so hard not to play him for all that you get for so few points!
He is the master of battle!!!!

Thanks again.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
Stormcrow wrote:
I agree on the thought of not playing Gothmog every time as I like to put a bit of variety into my army, but its so hard not to play him for all that you get for so few points!
He is the master of battle!!!!


And that's exactly why he shouldn't be played all the time. He's either underpriced or overpowered and either way he's "broke". Just like some of the Nazgul a couple troop options and some Good-side combos. If you're playing tournament-level competitiveness (ie prizes are on the line) that's one thing. But if you and friends are getting together and playing you are doing yourselves a disservice playing to GWs mistakes. WotR can really be a fun, challenging and dynamic game if you don't let yourself get sucked into the cheese all the time.
Author:  BoromirofIpswich [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
Stormcrow wrote:
Quote:
(Gothmog also called epic defence as I had to have an original action to call as i said i was planning on calling an epic/heroic action before the roll off).


You got this wrong. You were obliged to call an Heroic Action (either Heroic Fight or Heroic Duel) if you wanted to 'dice off' with him.
However, he was wrong in that you immediately could call, and why shouldn't you, an Epic Strike with Gothmog when Aragorn did.

You were also able to call an Epic Duel with Gothmog AFTER Aragorn called an Epic Duel - should Gothmog survive (F10+1 for duelling with Aragorn, plus the best of two dice vs. F10 plus a die roll) then the roles would be reversed: Gothmog gets +1 and the best of two dice.

I always drink a bit when gaming so I sympathise with your opponent - rules mis-interpretations are ALWAYS a clear indication that your opponent is 'cheesey' after the fifth pint :)

S
Author:  Draugluin [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
And that's exactly why he shouldn't be played all the time. He's either underpriced or overpowered and either way he's "broke". Just like some of the Nazgul a couple troop options and some Good-side combos. [/quote]
I wouldn't complain about the Good-side combos until the evil side is fixed. From a game play standpoint, the good combos are fair, you have to pay a lot for them to work and a nazgul can usually take care of them. From a thematic standpoint, Aragorn+Legolas+Gimli in the same formation SHOULD be able to take on all comers.
:aragorn: :legolas: :gimli:
But yes, Gothmog is too cheap, especially for a vague rule that causes so many arguments.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
BoromirofIpswich wrote:
Stormcrow wrote:
Quote:
(Gothmog also called epic defence as I had to have an original action to call as i said i was planning on calling an epic/heroic action before the roll off).

You got this wrong. You were obliged to call an Heroic Action (either Heroic Fight or Heroic Duel) if you wanted to 'dice off' with him.

Actually, you both got this slightly wrong.

At the start of the phase they both declare an intent to spend might and so they dice off. Aragorn wins and is promptly copied by Gothmog. Now Stormcrow had declared that he was gong to spend might so he is obligated to call some sort of action, that can be Heroic Fight, Heroic Duel or any Epic action that can be called at the start of the fight phase. It doesn't HAVE to be a "heroic" action, it just has to be an action that is called at the start of the phase. Unfortunately, Epic Defense is not such an action as it is called before the formation fights, not at the start of the phase, so he shouldn't have been able to call Epic Defense at that time.

BoromirofIpswich, you might have been saying that in that specific case, with those heroes involved, that they only options he had were Heroic Fight or Duel, but it came across like you were saying that as a general rule it had to be a Heroic Action, which is not right.
Author:  Stormcrow [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
Good point forgotton lore, I did make a mistake there!
But another question arrises.
If at the point when both players are to express their intent to perform actions such as HD ED etc I, as Gothmogs controling player state that I dont wish to call any actions and then my opponent calls a heroic/epic action, can Gothmog then copy that action or has he lost the opportunity to do so by not declaring an intent to perfom such an action.

This situation wouldnt come up for things such as epic strike, defence etc, only for the actions which may require a roll off.
Author:  BoromirofIpswich [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
Forgottenlore wrote
Quote:
At the start of the phase they both declare an intent to spend might and so they dice off. Aragorn wins and is promptly copied by Gothmog. Now Stormcrow had declared that he was gong to spend might so he is obligated to call some sort of action, that can be Heroic Fight, Heroic Duel or any Epic action that can be called at the start of the fight phase. It doesn't HAVE to be a "heroic" action, it just has to be an action that is called at the start of the phase. Unfortunately, Epic Defense is not such an action as it is called before the formation fights, not at the start of the phase, so he shouldn't have been able to call Epic Defense at that time.

BoromirofIpswich, you might have been saying that in that specific case, with those heroes involved, that they only options he had were Heroic Fight or Duel, but it came across like you were saying that as a general rule it had to be a Heroic Action, which is not right.


The problem here is that almost all Epic actions used in the fight phase can be called from the start of the phase/'dice off' for order until the formation fights - nothing says that Epic actions must be called immediately before a formation fights. The only exception I can think of is Epic Rampage. This ambiguity could, under one interpretation, lead to 'cheesieness' (sp?). A Player loses the 'dice off 'and decides to call Epic Defense, for instance. He's paid the Might point and met the requirements of the rules as written. Of course, had he won he may have chosen Heroic Fight or Heroic Duel, as well as later on calling the Epic Defense.

I interpret the start of phase as being a decision only whether to call Heroic Duel, Heroic Fight or Epic Rampage. Others, of course, may disagree.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
BoromirofIpswich wrote:
- nothing says that Epic actions must be called immediately before a formation fights.


WotR Rulebook, page 69 wrote:
Epic actions do not always have to be declared at the start of the phase, but are called when the Hero's formation is due to act.


What else can calling them when the formation is "due to act" mean if not immediately before? "OK, this guy is going to fight now so this is when I can call these actions."

Now that rule, combined with the fact that some Epic actions say they are called at the start of the phase and some (most) list an action before which they are called, tells me that each epic action has a specific time when it can be called, either at the start of the phase or when the hero is due to act (which seems pretty clear to me as meaning immediately before they fight, (or whatever)).

Your right that there are not a lot of Epic Actions that can be called at the start of the fight phase, but there are some. Epic Ramage, like you said, and a few that can be called at the start of any phase (Epic Renewal and Epic Restoration come to mind) and if a hero commits to using might at the start of the fight phase, then any of those would be eligible when it is his turn to call an action, not just the two Heroics (assumign the hero HAS those actions, of course). Then, when his hero is due to fight he has an opportunity to call those kinds of actions, as would any enemy heroes that may also be due to fight, and so another dice off might be needed.

Quote:
This ambiguity could, under one interpretation, lead to 'cheesieness' (sp?). A Player loses the 'dice off 'and decides to call Epic Defense, for instance. He's paid the Might point and met the requirements of the rules as written. Of course, had he won he may have chosen Heroic Fight or Heroic Duel, as well as later on calling the Epic Defense.

I am not sure what you mean by this? I don't see any ambiguity in the rules and I don't know what you are referring to as cheesiness?
Author:  Stormcrow [ Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
Totally agree with FL. The rules on when actions are called do seem pretty specific. I'll probably just about get to grips with these rules and then GW will do an update changing everything!!!!!! :shock:
Author:  BoromirofIpswich [ Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
I have to agree with FL as well.

S
Author:  D0Cdeath [ Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
Yer me too :rofl:
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
If by update you mean 'completel;y scrap all existing rules and make new ones at an extortionate price'
Author:  Telchar [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, yet again!!!
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
If by update you mean 'completel;y scrap all existing rules and make new ones at an extortionate price'


Live with it :( :sad: :roll:
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