There's a lot of these threads around I know. But that's not stopping me! These are [changes to the] rules I started making after my first couple of games, as people started voicing a couple complaints about some of the game mechanics, and as we found all the crazy combos and figured out what was- and wasn't- way too powerful or of highly questionable worth. Now that Forging of Fates is over and done with around here, I might actually start to get some modicum of use out of all this writing, and I thought I'd put this stuff up here as well for your commentary, input, and viewing pleasssssssssurrrrrre.

Right. Um. This is pretty extensive. It will require some time to really read through it all and see what's been done. It is not- I repeat- NOT a completed "product," which is a reason for its' being here-- so you can help come up with more ideas, if you like. Here's a summary of the really big changes:

--Initiative: New characteristic for determining Striking Order. Works just like in other GW games. I put this in basically as part of an attempted fix for Elves (they strike a little faster than other races).
--Tiered Terror: There are 3 levels of Terror-causing units now. Fear; Terror; Horror. They all have the same effects, just that the higher levels work on the lower levels.
--Focus Switched: You now roll Focus before rolling for each spell, rather than after. Makes spells just a little harder to get off, and if you fail a focus test you're done casting for the turn with that caster.
--Army Composition: You can take more Fortunes/Fates, and Allies are a little more restricted. Especially, Heroes generally can't be taken as Allies at all.
--Points adjustments. A good number of changes here. Decreases to command company option are pretty SOP on this website, but there are other changes too. Elves get a pretty broad cut.
--New units and heroes. Lawtz uv dem. [Okay, not that many, but a good number here and there, and I want to add more!]
--Nazgul are changed. A lot. They have their own section.

There are a good number of things still to do, which I'd love help with/ideas for:
--More Heroes for a few factions, such as Dwarves, Moria, and Isengard. I want each faction to have access to 5 or 6 heroes of their own, if it can be managed without the heroes overlapping in their uses too much. This combined with less hero allies should help distinguish factions from one another better, I hope. [Especially as regards Nazgul in Evil lists.]
--The adjustments to Battlehosts costs right now are highly tentative. Everything here is tentative to a degree, but Battlehosts especially so. I don't have experience with a lot of them.
--Fixing Monsters, i.e. Hard to Kill models. Not sure how to go about it right now, need to take a serious look at that. They need to actually be "H2K."
--I don't exactly like Khamul as is. I want to do more interesting somethings with him. Not sure what.
--Tons of little things. Mention any ideas you have, please!

Alright, thanks for any help in advance, and thanks as well for looking!

Link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Wv4OQzkUNLjJ0GS8ylRrr-8M1-9PsmWmXJ7VT_chEnI/edit

Orkdom

You mentioned wanting to give more epic heroes to the lists that are lacking, but you missed out one of the most obvious - Angmar, they have few heroes too.

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Yes, but I've already added 3 new heroes to that list, so I've got that base pretty well covered. 3 Nazgul, plus 3 home-brew heroes. That's a good place for them to be, imho.

I was saying those factions to which I still have not added any heroes, and have only 2-3 heroes in the official rules, need more.

Twenty pages! I'm going to look at it but not right away.

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There's a lot there, almost as long to pick apart as the original rulebook. But I'll focus on a few poinst and then my factions of expertise:

700 for the nine, upgraded or not seems a lot for any formation in Wotr I would rather downgarde them in ability rather than increase the points costs.

Despite what PJ did to Mouth of Sauron in the films, as the spokesman/treaty organiser for the Dark lord he needs diplomacy more than scariness... Just thematically from the book i wouldnt say he needs fear. just my personal opinion

Mordor SiegeBows: These were indeed underpriced before. But i did an analysis of hit rations/cost for siegebows and asssault ballistae, and the ratios were not too unreasonable as they were.. so upping them to 75 might be too much


Isengard, interesting.
Beserkers- why the increase to 140 points? they are fun in combat but not necessarily more dangerous than say 3 uruk warbands at 105 points.
Trolls - fear... i wouldnt argue
Ballistae - 80 points. its a tweak, but see above about the relative cost of siege bow/ballistae
Vrashku's TAlons... oh god yes, otherwise they arent worth taking, especially limited to 3 co.
In fact why are any of the scout legendaries limited to 3 companies in the rulebook... 4 would make them slightly more viable
Saruman- mastery 4 and dismay. I know elven opponents who would disagree for that. not sure mastery 4 is justified, (though i would love it) i would rather have the dismay back and courage 7, how does saruman become less courageous and forget a spell list (compare good and evil sarumans in the lists) As for causing Terror... well again as for Mouth of Sauron above he relies on his voice and prefers to show a 'fair face' and hence his voice of saruman ability
Lurtz 160 -- i think he is overpriced at 175.. so yeah
Grima - 50 etc... I concur
Madd Then - mastery 2 ruin caster for 80 points... again the elvies will be howling!!

Suggested addition: new troop type Half-orcs. Saruman specifically has cross bred humans and orcs to make the uruk hai and has enough of the half-breeds around to use at Helms deep... I thought they would make a nice army choice, but ahdnt thought any further bout what abilities to give em.


Misty Mountains
Druzhag at 130 points..... okay yes... he is amazing for 100 ill admit
Misty need more epics...
Durbuz might need a slight increase.. he is 4 might for 70 points currently.

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Daersalon:
Thanks for the comments. I don't have extensive experience with a lot of the factions, especially including Isengard, so most of what I've done there is based on maffz and my knowledge of the story line really. Except Mad Thenn, which I added in simply because in order for Grima to be of any use to Isengard they really need dismay casters. Saruman is one with his changes, but he's super expensive, so I wanted a cheaper caster on the flipside as a counter-option, a sort of Saruman-lite. I think it's a handy option Isengard didn't have anywhere before, and being an Epic Hero limits it enough that it isn't too crazy.

Taking your comments from the top:

The Nine: I agree, but I just haven't done much with them yet. Anything, really. The points-increase was an off the cuff increase as well, not much thought put in yet.... There are still a number of formations I need to actually look at seriously (Sauron is another one of note on the "to-do list"). I ideas on how to change them and make them more viable is welcome. Here's some basic thoughts/possibilities: Make them available in companies of 3, like the Twilight Ringwraiths, and also give them the option to become Cavalry. If we could break them down a bit it might be easier to make them "cost-efficient" and still get the effect of all nine together off well.

Mouth of Sauron: Interesting idea. I still think he should cause fear; that guy would scare most Men and a lot of other things regardless of his "purpose." Could think up some sort of "Voice of the Dark Lord" spell or ability for him though, to make him stand out. Definitely a cool idea. I'm thinking an epic ability or spell that has 2 effects, one for friendly formations, and one to influence enemy formations. Dunno. Any specific ideas?

Siege Bows and Ballistae: I also streamlined the rules for firing ballista artillery; not certain if you're saying you did said analysis with the changes to their rules, or with the original rules?? If you look at the new rules and the Strength values for wach kind of Scorpion artillery in the bestiary, there's a pretty standard increase in points relative to increased power. Maybe slightly overcosted?

The Berserkers increase is purely a comparison with other "like" formations (half-trolls and werewolves before I made the Gaurwaith); I should, perhaps, take some consideration to the place of their cost within their own faction.

Scout Legendaries do need help. Take Aim! was actually worse for the cost, especially as it spreads the increase over multiple companies, therefore relying on more companies to retain worth....limiting their formation size to 3 was just silly.

Saruman-- Mastery 4 might be too much, that's true. Dismay was an obvious add-in. I like Courage 6 for the White Hand because I think of Saruman as actually generally fearful and spiteful towards his "peers." He's very prideful, and that pride makes him fear any kind of setback, especially once it's out of the bag that he's a turncoat. His pride is a mask for his general lack of confidence in a way. He's a schemer and a turncoat, not a brave warrior on the front lines (which Gandalf could be). As for Terror, he is still Istari, and even the Elves know that. He's no different from Gandalf on those terms.

Half-Orcs: Well, unless they have a niche in the list they can fill, I don't really see the point. The list isn't lacking for formations anywhere at all so it's hard for me to see them having much purpose other than moderately cool bit of fluff no one would really ever use. Could replace "Isengard Orcs" with "Isengard Half-Orcs." Same rules, different name. But is that worth the space it takes in a list?

Druzhag also got a knock in Resilience since I put the Battlehost Fates in as regular options and increased Fate availability. Just to prevent the Rusty Mithril/Crown of Carn Dum combo for "infinite" Might on him.

Durburz should have his cost increased a bit. Probably 100-110.

And Yes, new epics are needed! Ideas welcome.

Why take out Haldir's Elves legendary formation? There's no way for Rohan to ally in Haldir without it. Unless you're a purist who doesn't like elves at Helm's Deep, it kinda ruins the idea of having allies in the first place.

You know what, I didn't even think about that aspect. Not a purist, just a dolt?

I took out Haldir's formation, and a few others like it, on the assumption that it was really redundant to have an essentially normal formation of Galadhrim Archers (in this example) which suffered a loss of options (stormcaller, 2 companies) in exchange for being led by a character already available as a regular Epic Hero (which could have been attached to a formation with all the normal options and full command). I gave Haldir Take Aim! and just removed the legendary formation.

Didn't think about this consequence. I guess such Legendaries actually gain a purpose for existing when I change the rules for Allies....
I'll put a few of them back in then, I s'pose. [Although there's always that Battlehost.]

The dead should cause terror and the King of the Dead should cause Horror. Seeing a bunch of ghosts coming at you would be pretty terrifying.

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Sorry about that orkdom, I posted that before I read it, as it took 45 minutes for my computer to load up your google page document. I do like the heroes you have given to Angmar but I just need to say tht alll epic heroes should have an epic action, and not al your epic heroes do. On the same subject, I think you need to come up with a better name foor your Isengard hero. Also, I think you should give a profile for Golfimbul, either as a Goblin in the MM list, or as an Orc in the Angmar list.

I like what you have done to decrease the points values of Elves and Spirit troops. However, I think with the change in striking order, elves are now much more powerful so I think you shoulsd increase their cost by about 5 pts per company (except Wood Elves who are high enough). Also the Spirit troops need to be reduced even further, I think Army of the Dead/Ghosts should be 30pts, with Spectres at 35pts (unless of course you give them rules to improve them further).

Next, is the Ringwraiths. On the whole, I love your version of the wraiths, I especially like how you've allowed people to take geeric wraiths, and that there are variable costs for the wraiths, also giving Khamul another might, ad changing certan overpowered rules. However, i think you have made the Dwimmerlaik way too poweerful, he was powerful enogh already, if you don't change his rules and leave it as is he should cost an extra 50pts or more. Also, I think the Betrayer should just be able to reroll to hit rolls of 1s and 2s for his command company. Then there is the Shadw lords position, I think the Undying is right in Agmar instead but I think the Shadow Lord should be in both as he has very Black Numenoreany armour. Also, neither Angmar nor Fallen Realms should be able to take fell beasts, Agmar because it is an ancient realm destroyed before fell beasts first appeared, and Fallen Realms because the wraiths wouldn't be riding fell beasts in Harad, Rhun and Khand.

Now, I applaud what you have done to increase the pts value of Morannon Orcs but I am shocked that you misssed out Warriors of Minas Tirith and Blackshields, both of which should also be increased. Blackshields are the same cost as normal goblins but are significantly better anmd as suchh are constantly spammed. Also, WoMT being common and plastic are also xconstantly spammed, and the slightly lower strength doesn't really make much difference. Both of these should be increased to 30pts per comp. Alsa, again, thre is the excellent idea to increas the cost of the Arbalesters but hjave done nothing to reduce the cost of their seriously overcosted units like Haradrim without bows, Corsairs, Mahud Warriors & Raiders. (have you notiiced WOMT and Haradrim cost the same, but WOMT are way better).

Next up is dwarves. You need to improve Vault Wardens, highly reknowned for being a dreadful unit, and Iron Guard who cost the same as Khazad Guards, but Khazad Guards are much more useful so the former is never used.

One thing I have to say, (eventhough I don't much like them myself), is that you have seriously overlooked the Rohan list. As it stands, the only worthwhile units in the list are Oathsworn Militia, Oathsworn Bowme, Royal Knights and Royal Guards, and (possibly) the Elfhelms Riders. The rest of the units need some seriops work to make them better. I may suggest you use Xelees advice for suitable rule for them.

Then, there are the Fortunes and Fates, on the whole, much better especially being able to take 2 for 2,000pts now nad the not need to take a BH fo some, howver , I think you need to do something to prevent the Crown of Carn Dum/Stolen Mithril Combo.

Gorbag's morgul Rate need to be slightly cheaper than you already reduced them.

Lastluy and certainly not least is WEREWOLVES! (and Barrow-wights). Allowing these units to be taken in more than a single company is exccellent, as is the pts reduction for the Werewolves and sort of the new addirtion to their rule. I don't know why you insist on making people call them Gaurwaiths instead of Werewolves. It is a nice gesture towads Sauron's Tol-in-Gauroth, but is not needed, let people call them what they want (WEREWOLVES IS AN AWESOME WORD!)

OH, and if I think of naything else, I will probably edit the above post rather than making a new one.

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-FSM.

I still haven't read it but a lot of the above comments are in line with changes I made too - so I second those! In particular ALL 20-25pt heavy inf need that cost increase. Def 4 (6) might just be ok @ 25pts but the WoMT need to go up too.

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Indeed Tolkien did not do any favours calling them werewolves. A pet peeve of mine is that theya re listed as infantry. They are not shape changing humans. (the shapechangers are bears generally the beornings). They are instead incredibly strong wargs with human like intelligence, almost evil spirits inhabiting giant fell wargs.

Mouth of Sauron and Saruman. I get the idea they can cause fear if they choose to... But still feels anti-thematic. would saruman lead from the front inpiring terror.. or rather be slightly more behind his minions spurring them to die in his name? Same for the Mouth... Anyway. just idle thoughts

Isengard:
Ballistae comments. ok. no i did an analysis on the Wotr stats not your revised ones. just to be clear. So your costings may be more reflective indeed.
Half orcs. Well they can have a role. more than say 'Feral' Uruks... exactly what?... well i cant be specific yet. just an aditional troop choice cant hurt...

Misty Epics. Well some are named and may appear of course in The Hobbit expansion. Azog and Bolg for example. A legendary formation could be Bolg and his bodyguard

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Taking the War in Middle earth to a new level!

@daersalon, No draugluin did not say that, I did!

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

sorry... the quote button said you did .. apologies.. blame the php

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A second Edition for The War of the Ring:http://wessexcodex.wordpress.com

Taking the War in Middle earth to a new level!

Thanks for all the replies! From the top:

@Draugluin: Thematically I agree, and I might do that for the King of the Dead; I just didn't want Angmar to have an army where pretty much everything caused Terror from the start-- but maybe I'm being silly about that. As it stands, it's sort of set up so that you need Epics to get higher versions of Fear (Terror or Horror). I want to try a game or two with them just causing fear and discuss it with the group, and go from there. Maybe Terror-causing with less of a points-decrease than Gothmog suggests.... We'll see.

@Gothmog: Thanks for all the input! I'll just work my way down the list....

--Epic Actions are fine, but I won't just throw them on there. They need to serve the purpose of the hero within his faction. I'll see if I can come up with some things (ideas welcome of course).

--A better name for Mad Thenn is welcome. Just the first thing that came to my head. I wasn't totally sure what to call him.

--Golfimbul will be a MM Epic in all likelihood, alongside Azong and Bolg. The problem is, alongisde Durburz, all these Epics start to seem very similar. I don't just want to give them 4 different "goblin kings"; I want some variation and options for them as well. I think Bolg and Bodyguard is an excellent idea though! That's something to work on.

--I actually agree about the points-cost for Elves with the Initiative add-in, but I'm playing a game with these rules tomorrow, so I'll get a good chance to see it in action and discuss it there. Likely I'll add 5pts back to a few of them.

--My points reduction for the Spirits is admittedly somewhat conservative. I didn't want to swing to fast in any given direction. Also, they continue to have some really serious advantages in Spirit Walk and Spirit Grasp, assuming they are properly used. I want to cost them as they should be costed if we assume the player plays them well, so I'm not decreasing them to 30pts just yet. My thinking right now is that 45/50 can make them very worthwhile for Angmar; it doesn't make them the only units you'd use, but it makes them a serious option. I'm not sure I want them costing the same as Carn Dum Men.

--Nazgul: I didn't change Dwimmer at all? Not sure what you're talking about with him, unless you just mean he should cost more. About the Betrayer, and the Knight of Umbar as well, I was thinking I might just change them back and reduce them to "company only" abilities. That's what I did originally, actually. But I want the Nazgul to work more as "negators" of power, rather than increasing offensive output-- I'm trying to make their abilities do more to shut down enemy abilities than anything to increase friendly powers. Except the Witch-King and (a little bit) Khamul, I want them to be more anti-hero/anti-courage Epics, if you get what I'm saying. :/

About Fell Beasts, I think a big part of the spirit theme of Angmar is the attempt to bring it back into the War of the Ring; these are the ghosts of old Arnor, not the ghosts who fought at Fornost, more or less. That's where I've gone with my Angmar Epics (the "Spiritseer" is actually supposed to be Undead Malbeth). So it doesn't seem such a stretch to me that when Dwimmer and Taint return north to awaken these spirits, they might do so by Fell Beast. (It's a possibility.) Same goes, essentially, for Fallen Realms-- we can't really say definitively that no Nazgul ever rode a Fell Beast to Umbar. (At least not since we're apparently saying Nazgul other than the WK actually have a Fell Beast.)

--*bows* Morannon's needed it. But I think we all knew that one....

--WoMT to 30 is a real possibility. Like so much of the Bestiary I still need to look more closely at their Faction.

--Blackshields and, in fact, everything else in MM needs some adjustment, I think. But like I said I have to look at MM some in order to decide what to do with it. Definite points increases for Blackshields though, and maybe some changes to the basic goblins as well....I'm not sure how I feel about them costing the same as Orcs with so much more ability.

--Same deal for Haradhrim, Dwarves, Rohan, etc. Need to look at it. Very probably I'll soon do the things you suggest.

--My means of "fixing" the Mithril/Crown combo was to make sure no MM Epic had more than 2 Resilience. Anything about adjusting points becomes problematic because I can't cost something based on the possibility of a broken combo being used when that just means the cost is too high for every other possible use of these Fates (not using both, using them on separate heroes, etc.), and also because just increasing their cost doesn't affect games of larger points-values. I think they're both cool ideas as Fates, so I want to keep them in there. Best think I can think of is a moderate cost increase for the Rusty Mithril, and no Resilience 3 Epics for MM, so there's always a 1-in-6 chance the crown kills the hero you spent all your Fates on.

--I'll look at the Rats.

--I just like the name Gaurwaith more, actually. You can call 'em wotcha want.

Thanks for the reply!

@Daersalon: Your depiction of the "werewolves" is more in accordance with his writing on the subject, to a point. But I don't think he would have discounted the possibility of a more classic "werewolf" creature existing. IIRC, Sauron was himself able to shape-shift into a Wolf, making him a prime example of this, in a way. Tolkien's world is open to a lot of things that he didn't explicitly lay down as law.

Again-- Half-Orcs could be cool. Just don't know what I'd do with them.

At least Bolg and Bodyguard will definitely be in. If we can come up with some original ideas, both Golfimbul and Azog can make it in as well.

Thanks! I think I got it all for now. I'll do some editing later tonight.

That is one epic manual. Nice work. Looks good to me. I have some ideas that I've played with.

We Stand Alone: These formations can 'At the Double' as if they had a Hero in it.
- I find that all formations with this rule are costed more than normal so I thought it would be fair.

Throwing Weapons: Formations can throw 2" per point of Strength. Calvary formations can throw an additional 2".
- Its a Rohan rule really.

Epic Rampage: A roll of 1 is always a miss and there are no re-rolls. The Hero that called Epic Rampage must leave the command company to lead another company in the formation before the fight begins and returns to the command company at the end of the fight phase.
- To avoid the +2 to hit combo.

Spirit Grasp: After hitting vs. courage, all misses are re-rolled vs. armor.
- Making ground on the cost of Spirit Formations and how delicate they are. If they die fast they should kill even faster.

All Legendary Formations initial cost for Hero's is 75 points.
- To make it simple and more interesting.

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Update:
Changes to the Gondor and Arnor section (WoMT cost, courage boost for Numenoreans, Arvedui's Banner is an Army Banner now, other stuff).
Added in Arms and Armour section with fire-on-the-go Throwing Weapons. Start of a fix for Rohan? I'll get to them in more detail later.
Changed Nazgul (Khamul, Dark Marshall, Betrayer, Knight).

Slythar:
--We Stand Alone/AtD: One thing I thought of a little bit was making AtD dependent upon a Banner Bearer rather than a Hero. You make a good point about the cost of these formations. I'm more inclined to try and give everything access to some sort of basic hero than to just let everyone AtD w/o one. Still not a bad idea. Have to look and see what formations there are as would really benefit from that.

--Throwing Weapons: Just put a change in for them. Not sure about changing their range. Could just do 6" for Infantry, 8" for everyone else, but I don't know if that's necessary.

--Makes sense with Rampage. That rule's a bit crazy with Aragorn/Gimli.

--Interesting idea for Spirit Grasp. I like it, but it might confuse people? Dunno. I'll see about it tomorrow.

--Legendary Hero costs: Has to be variable. Different guys are worth different points.

Thanks!

I'm not sure I understand why you would put Grima in the Kingdom of Rohan Bestiary. I know he originally served Theoden, King before Saruman turned him to darkness but in gameplay he gets added to an enemy formation to reduce their Fight and Courage(not a standard Good tactic). He just doesn't seem to belong with Rohan but rather Isengard which he actually served. Could you please explain your reasoning?

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Khamul's ability should probably be a free roll on the table rather than a wound counter for monsters.

Regarding Grima: You've about got me. Basically just because he "serves" Rohan at some point. Possibly he would be different; in that case he probably just wouldn't be in the list. I guess he doesn't do much for Rohan either, unless you have Saruman or Gandalf in there too. Maybe I'll take him out.

Regarding Khamul: Possibly, but I'm not comfortable with the idea that it could outright kill a monstrous hero. I want to do some work on the H2K table as well, and after that's more settled, Khamul's ability as it applies to Monsters can be settled as well.