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Tremor and Will of Iron
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Author:  daersalon [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Tremor and Will of Iron
I have a small confusion about Tremor and Will of Iron. If a Caster casts the spell can a hero in an affected formation Will of Iron it. There are three outcomes after the caster announces intention to cast it, but before rolling to see if it works:

1. He casts the spell. As It is an area of affect and targets no specific formation, but all formations, the spell cannot be negated by Will of Iron.
2. He casts the spell. One hero in one formation affected Makes a Will of Iron to negate the spell completely and the spell doesnt affect any formation on either side.
3. He casts the spell. One hero in one formation affected Makes a Will of Iron to negate the spell effect for that hero's formation *only* i.e. it affects any others in range.

My reading (Ok as I cast it often) is that option (1) is the usual as no formation is chosen as the target of the spell... its all formations in range (the text is quoted below).
Option (2) Is the other extreme.
Option (3) Might seem reasonable, though strictly RAW says only 1 WoI per spell.


"Tremor: *At the caster's command, the earth bellows with rage, throwing fragments of jagged rocks into the air*
This magical power affects all formations (friendly and enemy) within 6" of the caster. Roll a D6. On a 2 to 5, every formation within range suffers D6+3 Strength 6 hits. If a 6 is rolled, every formation within 6" instead suffers d6+3 Strength 8 hits."

Will of Iron: "To resist a spell, nominate a Hero in the formation imemdiately as the formation is chosen as the target of the spell. That hero must immediately spend a Might point.... ... Any Hero in the formation may try to resist the spell, but only one attempt to resist may be made per spell."
Author:  Naresh [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
2 sounds more likely than 3, as 3 would be a really cost effective way of burning through enemy heroes might, just cast a tremor a turn and that's maybe 3 points of might (possibly less, possibly more ) burnt through on Will of Iron, making it a fairly abusable spell.

The problem is most spells aren't multi target, as I recall Tremor is the only one that is, "chosen as the target of the spell."

The target, not "a target"
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
We have always played it that you can't WoI tremor.
Author:  Xelee [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
We've always played as you can.

Look at it this way, just because more than one formation is the target (all within the radius are) does not mean that one formation isn't the target. The rules don't say you have to be the ONLY target.

As to multiple WOI - it isn't allowed when multiple heroes are in a single target formation and I don't see whay it would be allowed just because they are in multiple target formations.

Cheers
Author:  daersalon [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
Ok I offered option (3) as a talking point, but i know it looks dodgy... But might be a halfway house...

Anyway, The Will of Iron Rule says you may attempt WoI once a formation has been chosen as the target of the spell. The wording here is 'chosen' as every other spell says "choose an enemy formation" in order to cast a spell. My thesis revolves around that, none are *chosen* a wave of earthy destruction will hit everything in 6" rather indiscriminately (save the caster's own formation of course).

Opinion will probably boil down to either "well you can WoI any other spell affecting a unit so same for Tremor" or "It's an area effect spell without a target".
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
I think that there could me an official answer to this question in the WOTR FAQ, I beleive I rember a question about the Tremer spell.
Author:  daersalon [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
I didnt paste what the FAQ said in my OP but it's:

"Q. Does Tremor affect the caster’s own formation if cast by an Epic Hero in the formation/company? (p74)
A. No. The caster is assumed to have enough fine control."

Which helped arguments about the casters own formation getting wellied by the spell, but not about Wills of Iron...
Author:  Naresh [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
I'd say it lies between 1 and 2, I'd rule out 3 completely.

But, between 1 and 2, I'd go for 2, as it follows the rules for other spells more closely
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
Quote:
When a hero employs a magical power, the player declares...the target of that power.
Quote:
Unless otherwise stated, the target...must be...within arc of sight and visible to the casting hero's company
Quote:
To resist a spell...immediately as the formation is chosen as the target


All the other spells say to choose a target, tremor doesn't. Tremor says it affects all formations in range but doesn't say anything about targeting or ignoring targeting restrictions, which implies to me that the formations aren't targets, merely, well, affected, like the spell description says. Since you never choose a target for tremor, I don't see (RAW) how you could WoI it.

I don't know what the Rules as Intended might be, but to be honest, it never even occurred to me that any other interpretation was possible. The spell is non-targeted, so how can the target resist it?
Author:  Xelee [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
Like so many other WOTR rules discussions, I think it is possible to over-interpret the wording and make the phrasing do more work than it should.

Other formations are definitely the target of the spell. They are chosen as the target when the caster chooses to cast a spell that will affect them.

I don't know what the Rules as Intended might be, but to be honest, it never even occurred to me that any other interpretation was possible. The spell is targets other formations, so how can the target not get to resist it like they can bolt of fire etc?
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
Put simply, the spell targets the floor. Think of it as what Gandalf does on the bridge with the Balrog - he causes the ground to split and break apart. That's what Tremor is and it's the earth moving that causes the pain.

It doesn't have a target, it just hits people. No Will of Iron.

However, I think it's a good houserule to have it that one affected formation may attempt to Will of Iron it.
Author:  Xelee [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
Hi Hashut's blessing, when I read that the thing that immediately came to mind was that scene from the Simpsons where Bart and Lisa are quarreling again. They start swinging their arms while at a distance and then advancing on each other "I'm not hitting you, I'm hitting the air. If your face gets in the way, that's your own fault."

I guess my reply to you is similar to that I made to Forgottenlore:

I don't know what the designer intends, for all I know a GW designer might find it a fun little detail to have an attack spell work inconsistently because the idea seems cool. :)

However, the way you are reading the situation seems counter-intuitive to me. You take text that tells you when in the sequence Will of Iron is rolled (ie you don't get to decide after seeing whether the spell is sucessfully cast or damage dice are rolled) and put a very particular interpretation on it - essentially saying the caster does not choose a target because he/she chosses multiple targets. Its not just targetted at the ground, it doesn't hit the casters own formation, for starters. In fact the caster has fine control and targets enemy formations only. Who get to roll Will of Iron when the Caster chooses to do so.

I think you've jumped the gun on calling it a houserule there.
Author:  daersalon [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
Xelee wrote:
You take text that tells you when in the sequence Will of Iron is rolled ...


But it does more ... the text informs us you can't Will of Iron a spell cast at a nearby formation to help them out, and just happening to be in the spell range, or Will of Iron a spell such as Dark Fury cast on a formation that charges you. i.e. it (WoI) works only on targetted formations. So its not just over-reading sequence of flow, as it specifies what types of spells can be WoI'd.

I think there is a genuine scope for interpretation/confusion here, as you can argue either way (hence my original post). With regard Tremor and WoI it's not just overapplying a typo or quirk of the grammar of the rules writers either as the spell is a 'special case' in that its an Area of Effect result. The argument really is whether you can WoI *any* spell affecting a formation who would rather not have it cast at them, or a hero can only WoI spells cast actually *at* him after seeing whats coming.

Open to interpretation enough to deserve an official FAQ clarification I think :)
Author:  Xelee [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
daersalon wrote:
Xelee wrote:
You take text that tells you when in the sequence Will of Iron is rolled ...


But it does more ... the text informs us you can't Will of Iron a spell cast at a nearby formation to help them out, and just happening to be in the spell range, or Will of Iron a spell such as Dark Fury cast on a formation that charges you. i.e. it (WoI) works only on targetted formations. So its not just over-reading sequence of flow, as it specifies what types of spells can be WoI'd.

I think there is a genuine scope for interpretation/confusion here, as you can argue either way (hence my original post). With regard Tremor and WoI it's not just overapplying a typo or quirk of the grammar of the rules writers either as the spell is a 'special case' in that its an Area of Effect result. The argument really is whether you can WoI *any* spell affecting a formation who would rather not have it cast at them, or a hero can only WoI spells cast actually *at* him after seeing whats coming.

Open to interpretation enough to deserve an official FAQ clarification I think :)

Oh yes, most definitely worthy of a FAQ because, however I think it reads, I also wouldn't rule out the possibility that a GW designer might find it a fun little detail to have an attack spell work inconsistently because the idea seems cool.

As to the WOI text, I wasn't really as clear as I could have been there. I meant that the sentence about choosing a target was being read in an 'exclusive' fashion (ie if you choose a target, you may not choose other targets) when it doesn't have to be and the purpose of that phrase is to give the right sequence. Dark Fury boosts and damages a different formation than will be WOIing it and it is not just that targets of Tremor are in spell range - they are actually hit. So there are significant differences in both cases. I wouldn't characterise Tremor as 'area of effect either' - it targets multiple formations in range (but not all, it does not target the caster's one) but the hits still come off whole formations as usual, not just within the area. However, mechanics aside, the fluff/flavour of it is about an area effect and so see above about FAQ.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
Xelee wrote:
In fact the caster has fine control and targets enemy formations only.


No he doesn't. The spell effects all formations in range except the casters.

The WoI sequence says it happens after the caster chooses a target. Tremor does not say the caster is ever choosing any formations for anything, the effect simply happens. All the other attack spells say in their description "Choose an enemy formation..." or something similar. Tremor doesn't say that and if you are not doing that then there is no opportunity to WoI.
Author:  Xelee [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
ForgottenLore wrote:
Xelee wrote:
In fact the caster has fine control and targets enemy formations only.


No he doesn't. The spell effects all formations in range except the casters.

I'll grant you that - sloppily put but only because I never see non-enemy formations get targetted and it doesn't materially affect the point anyway.

As to the rest - yes somewhat but I agree in the sense that I agree with Lisa and Bart that there is a way to interpret what they are doing as not just hitting each other. In fact, strictly speaking, just like here, they are not. On the other hand, by any reasonable standard, they are trying to hit each other.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tremor and Will of Iron
It would be nice if there was a faster, more formal FAQ process in place at GW...especially for a new game system like this. We waited a long time for the first FAQ to come out and it still left a lot of gaps (and I still think the WK rules are stupid and GW missed an opportunity to correct them but that's a whole different point and not to sidetrack here).

To the point though, I would agree that ANY formation in the range can WOI this spell. It is a logical view that someone in the effected range can counter or resist and the magic doesn't go off. You can generate any amount of fluff to explain it ( counter spell, distracting the caster, shouting "jump" to all nearby formations just as the tremor passes, whatever). But there probably isn't intended to be a spell that is immune to WOI.
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