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Help against counsellors!
https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=20527		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Stormcrow [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Help against counsellors!
Hi,
I need some advise on how to fight against an army that contains the three counsellors, Gandalf, Galadriel, and Dain.
I play a Mordor army and keep coming up against the same problem. The counsellors ability to increase might points amonst themselves and distribute them to other heroes is crippling my army. I stand little chance of winning duels as my oponent has plenty of might to increase dice rolls and he has plenty to expend on will of iron rolls preventing my spells being cast.
Any suggestions on what i could do to counter this?
Author:  General Elessar [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
Frankly, the best way to prevent multiple counsellors would be to tell your opponent to stop power-gaming and ruining the game for everyone.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
I haven't had the misfortune of playing against a Might Battery yet, but it is one of the 2 or 3 areas of rules that are legitimately broken. I don't know what your local play situation is like but I would start by trying to convince my regular opponents to house rule limitations on Counselors and Ringwraith spam.

If that is not an option, it depends on your opponents forces. To have Gandalf and Dain he must be playing 1600 points of Elves or over 2000 points of something else, right? It also sounds like he has additional heroes, so he must be running a pretty small army, unless you guys are playing with 4000 point forces or something.

Counselor has a pretty limited range. If you play on a larger battlefield you could try to isolate the parts of his army that don't have the counselor support or force the counselors to separate and overwhelm them with numbers.

He can only generate so much Might a turn, unless he gets really lucky. Take a lot of ringwraiths and other spellcasters (6+) and try to black dart the counselors. Yeah, he will have might to spend, but if he has to spend a might to will of iron 6 darts, AND spend more might to bump some of those rolls up to a 4+ every turn he is going to run out. If you can hit him with some other spells first, that he might also try to WoI he will have even less. Obviously if you manage to get a dart through, use might to bump the roll and kill him if you can.

Basically, without knowing more about how he is using them, I see it as he either has all the counselors concentrated in one formation so they can be certain of supporting each other. If that is the case, concentrate on the rest of his army first. If the heroes are spread out in multiple formations, try and separate them so they are out of range, concentrate on the most vulnerable and kill one of them quickly.

By all means, give us some more information on what he runs and what you run, that could make a lot of difference.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
In competitions you're pretty much SOL with a few of these broke options in WotR, but locally if someone is playing like that then just tell them if they want to be a cheezy power gamer to stick with WH or Magic: The Gathering. :lol:

To paraphrase: "Let us define progress to mean that just because you CAN do a thing, does not mean you MUST do that thing"

Otherwise, drop the top Nazugl in a big block of Morannon Orcs and Black Dart the heck out of whichever counselor has the least Might that turn, and send a few Mumuks in to squash their formation. Rinse and repeat. 8)
Author:  Jazlotus [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
I sometimes play with all 3 counsellsors, the reason I use them is just to counter act my opponent playing 6 plus Ringwraits because I think that much magic really slows the game down! So why not suggest to your opponent to come to some agreement on how many Ringwraiths u use to counsellors he uses!
Author:  Xelee [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
Hi Sotrmcrow, for all three to be there, that would have to be a big points total right? Or a small overall army? What are the points, what is the army, and what is your army?

I don't see Radagast or Saruman (though you could modify that one anyway) in there so my first instinct is: Evil - use the cheaper Ruin/Darkness casters (125pt and below) and a properly composed army and focus on working through his troops. Good - Epic Strike + Epic Challenge heroes (I feel that the stacked Rampage thing will have a place too, if you have a screen to carve through), probably with things to boost might, and get stuck into dueling these heroes out quickly. Evil can do this well too. Something like the Tainted with 'Evil Reputation', doing the Dismay thing with other casters as well, then throwing in a dueling hero can create quite the fight Margin (11 just to draw!) and you pick the target so all the overflowing might can't be everywhere at once.

Given each can only do one Counsellor per turn (so three chances at getting that 6, though it could be three 6s!), it should hopefully not get too unmanageable too quickly. Once one link in the chain is down, it gets much better, once two links are down, the chain is broken.

Edit: Jazlotus, I think you raise a reasonable point. It is no use talking about moderating things in an ad-hoc manner. That will make the game worse, rather than better. We need to be more systematic.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
Xelee wrote:
Given each can only do one Counsellor per turn (so three chances at getting that 6, though it could be three 6s!),


Point of order, one use of Counselor is not limited to one point of might. With all 3 of those guys he has a theoretical 10 rolls on the first turn. Although, if he is doing that all the Might ends up on one hero and the other two are insanely vulnerable.
Author:  Xelee [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
That is a fair enough point of order. My advice remains though: If good get stuck in with actual duellers (plus perhaps Rampage to cut a path - and duel the turn after that) quickly. If Evil, you have a choice about how to play it, since your army is likely far more efficient overall.

I will add in this one (and I think it is about the only) case, I think it would be *almost* reasonable to just try running multiple Mumaks over the top of them via Overlord :P
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
I don't remember, can Might be used to effect the roll for counselors?

Sounds silly, I know, but if a counselor rolls a 5 it is still a benefit to spend a might to bump it up to a 6. spend 2 gain 3. Of course the counselor has to be keeping some might in reserve to be able to do that.

Oh, to the OP, I also want to remind you that he can't use Galadriel or Gandalf's "Touched by Destiny" rule with counselor as it is limited to Epic actions, He can use it for Epic Renewal though. For some reason I have encountered several people who seem to have trouble distinguishing that.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
If they were silly enough to play in a way that puts all their Might into one Epic like that, then swoop over them with a few Winged Nazgul and blast the OTHER Counselors (you know...the ones with no Might :twisted: ) with Black Dart. So now he has one loaded up and will still be a major PITA for a while but it ends the chain.

And I still think a Mumuk or two (or three) using Overload if necessary would take care of much of it.
Author:  BlackMist [ Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
Stormcrow wrote:
I stand little chance of winning duels as my oponent has plenty of might to increase dice rolls and he has plenty to expend on will of iron rolls preventing my spells being cast.

Maybe someone said it before me, I haven't read the whole thread, but:
A dice in a duel can only be boosted up to the score of 6. Therefore if you have a hero with Epic Strike your duel is D6+10 and your opponent's Galadriel's and Gandalf's are D6+4. It's pretty cool to kill off a Councellor with Durburz or some other cheap stuff ;)

Triple Councellors are often the best counter against 5 Wraith Mordor, but the 5 Wraith Mordor should still be able to be winning at a good rate. You don't have to be casting Black Darts at the councellors, that's not necessarily a smart idea. Instead why don't you do double or tripple Corruption on your own unit and then chew the Councellor's formation instead?

I think Councellors are much less of a problem than a Mumak/Overlord and 5-Wraiths, because essentially there is not that much stuff you can do with an overbundance of Might, in the end you get to boost your combat rolls because you run out of ideas.

Forgotten Lore wrote:
I don't remember, can Might be used to effect the roll for counselors?

It can be used on ANY dice roll a hero makes.
Author:  dave85uk [ Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
I'm interested to know what army you have and what army your opponent has!
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
BlackMist wrote:
Forgotten Lore wrote:
I don't remember, can Might be used to effect the roll for counselors?

It can be used on ANY dice roll a hero makes.


Not quite true, there are a couple of exceptions. The most notable being priority rolls (which one could argue the hero isn't making) and rolls for using the Crown of Carn Dum. My questions was just whether counselor listed itself as such an exception.
Author:  BlackMist [ Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
I said any roll a hero makes, priority is not a hero's roll... And Crown has a specific exception. Councellor doesn't, hence it can be used.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
BlackMist wrote:
And Crown has a specific exception. Councellor doesn't, hence it can be used.


Which is what I was asking.
Author:  Stormcrow [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
A few of you guys have asked what my army is, sorry about late reply but it is as follows.
I play a Mordor army and the games are usually 2000 points which is used on:

Witch king on fell beast,
Khamul,
The betrayer,
Gothmog,
Lurtz/Saruman (these are allies, i usually use one or the other)
Mordor troll, (sometimes two)
3 Companies morannon orcs,
8 Companies mordor orcs,
6 companies uruk hai scouts (allies)

Most of the time i still have points remaining as my army is still in progress. So i usually have points to spend wich normally goes on another wraith as i have all the models. I plan on buying more orcs soon to increase the cannon fodder.

So problems i face are the winged nazgul alway, always gets slain in a heroic duel (happens every time) and most of my magic is ineffective as my oponents have plenty of might for will of iron rools. Any tips?
Thanks
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
Well, you have half your army sunk into 5-7 models. I have about the same number of companies of regular troops in my 1000 point army as you have in 2000 points. So you might try reducing that a bit. I generally try to limit my epics and monsters to 1/3 of my points (unless I am using a dragon cause I just don't have that many troops yet).

With Epic Strike, how is the Witch King getting dueled to death? I can see the enemy being able to concentrate on him with regular attacks and killing him that way, but he should be able to hold his own or better for the first 3 duels at least.

I would recommend dropping Trolls for the time being, at least. Are all the orcs upgraded with shields? If not then do that (but see below for an alternative).

If he is constantly Will of Ironing your spells, don't cast spells at him. Wings of Terror is good for outflanking if you are going second and Terrifying Aura can be useful. Strength from corruption on your own weak orcs can be fun. Actually instead of shields for your basic orcs, you might give them 2-handed weapons. Strength 5 orcs with +1 to-hit might give him pause. If you are using Sauruman Dark fury could make that even worse. thirty some attacks (more if you are lucky) that hit on 3+ and reroll misses. Tremor doesn't target an enemy formation so it can't be will of ironed.
Sauruman also has access to command spells, aura of blinding light can mitigate the attacks he gets because of your orc's low fight, Instill Valor can compensate for their low courage (especially useful if you are charging elves) and of course blessing of the valar can make a difficult to kill formation that much harder as their guys keep coming back.

If you do take another wraith (and 4 of them is starting to look cheesy in itself, but hey, if your opponent insists on using a might batter) and his reserves of might are the issue, take the Dwimmerlaik and force him to spend more.
Author:  Stormcrow [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
[quote="ForgottenLore"]
With Epic Strike, how is the Witch King getting dueled to death?

The witch king is on a fell beast and doesn't have the epic strike ability. In answer to your other suggestions i usually equip my orcs with two handed weapons to increase their hits and i'd prefer to field more orc rather than the additional wraith but i am lacking the models at the moment. Good point on the use of wings of terror, thats a spell i have previously overlooked but i'll give that a try.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
Stormcrow wrote:
The witch king is on a fell beast and doesn't have the epic strike ability.


I'll be damned, I was sure the Fell Beast versions had all the same abilities as the ground versions, just with the Fell Beast stuff added on. My bad. Loose the Fell Beast then. In my experience Hard to Kill really isn't and 325 points for something that can be offed 1st turn with some lucky shooting just isn't worth it.

Wings of Terror is great. It (along with Strength from Corruption) is probably the most popular spell with evil players in my area
Author:  Xelee [ Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help against counsellors!
Not Pall of Night? That spell is impressively 'cheap'.
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