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Command models: how useful?
https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=19360		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Lorizael [ Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Command models: how useful?
So I normally take all the command models available for my combat troops and then don't bother with my archers. They seem very useful for the extra might, re-rolls and bonus movement.

What does everyone do? Is it on a unit by unit decision? Do you take all command as standard or avoid them all?
How useful are command models?
Author:  Xelee [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Command models: how useful?
I'm not the only local who has lots of banners modelled but never actually uses the rules for them, or purchases them. Captains seem ok for infantry formations, if you are out of cheap Epic alternatives, I'd never take them on Cav. Hornblowers are again good to model but seldom taken.
Author:  spuds4ever [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Command models: how useful?
Captains are very useful though a cheap epic, as Xelee said is often a better idea. Hornblowers are not very good. Taskmasters are very handy. Banners I don't normally use on infantry formations but they are very useful for cavalry.
Author:  General Elessar [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command models: how useful?
I agree with spuds, save for one point: I don't like Captains much. I'd always take an Epic instead, or no Hero at all. I'd also like to stress that while banners aren't neccessary for infantry, they are very valuable for cavalry
Author:  Lorizael [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command models: how useful?
Ok, so why do you guys find banners useful on cavalry but not infantry?
I've always felt it was the other way round seeing as infantry has the lower charge range and so is in more need of the banner re-roll.

Yeah, I've been 'meh' with the hornblower. An extra inch isn't usually worth much.
Author:  Xelee [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command models: how useful?
I've learned to live without them for Cavalry too. Essentially I looked at it in terms of a ratio of upgrades (ie heroes, Epics etc) to troops and decided I would spend that pool on Epics, then Captains. Anything with might is a generic resource that you can use to help in a wide range of situations through heroic actions and roll modification.

Since Cavalry either will be overwhelming something from the front or hitting a flank of something pinned by a foot unit (since Cav needs to avoid return attacks), just using a might point to turn 1s into 2s on the charge table seems a better investment of points. This way big chunks of points are not committed to fixing something that does not often happen.

(edit)

It's basically because they are so expensive vs the cost of troops. They could be handy but are not 35 pts handy. So there are other ways to get longer charges/be in charge range in the limited set of circumstances where you have to do it and you'd rather have the troops the rest of the time. Cav are more reliant on the charge, but see above.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command models: how useful?
I think banners are pretty useful because they decrease the chance of a stalled charge, increase the chance of a 6 to charge (temporarily forgot the rule's name, lol :D ) and mean you're less likely to suffer from Onset of Dismay and more likely to remain Steadfast.

Combine that with something like a Shieldbearer and you're very likely to stay around if you manage to lose combat.

I hate captains, although I love Shieldbearers (give +1F, +1Mt, At the Double! and Steadfast on 5 and 6, for half the price!) and Dragon Knights (F7, At the Double!, +1Mt and at the cost of a banner!). Captains are a great way for getting Heroic/Epic Duelled and losing a bunch of extra models as well as 50 points that could've been spent on another company or two. Shieldbearers and Dragonknights provide the main bonuses, without the same points sink and give other bonuses too.

Hornblowers: despise these. They should be 10 points and give +1 to the charge range as well (not the dice, just the range, so infantry charge D6"+3"). Completely useless unless you take the Rohan Fortune that means HBs cause Terror and even then, it's a single turn...

Casters: 100pts of not-worth-it. They will be Heoric/Epic Duelled and can't stand up to it, cost slightly less than Epic Heroes that have more casting than them, cost slightly more than a lot of Epic Heroes, you can get as many as 6 extra companiess (excepting hobbits), but at least 2 (basic ones, excluding ghosts). Even 50pts is difficult to consider them. The magic is very useful for those points, but die easily in combat, so best to put them in a two-company formation and keep them out of harm's way (maybe archers, preferably with elven cloaks?)...

Miscellaneous: Usually pretty cool and always very flavoursome and nice, IMO. Goblin drum, Corsair Bo'sun, Dragon Knight, Shieldbearer, etc...
Author:  Lorizael [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command models: how useful?
@ Xelee: Hmmm, Ok. But isn't that permanent re-roll (and on panic table) more worthwhile than a 2 times of being able to modify a dice roll?
Author:  Xelee [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Command models: how useful?
Hashut's Blessing, I'd pay 100pts for a Darkness Shaman, they lift you a lot with only the one spell...

Lorizael, I'm not claiming I'm 100% right here, but I noticed that rerolling charges did not turn out to matter as much as I thought it would. The morale benifits sound nice but didn't turn out to 'matter' as much as I thought they might in actual games either.

When reviewing games afterward - what I found 'mattered' was: 1. might points to adjust crucial dice rolls (some rolls are really consequential) and 2. might points to call heroic moves/heroic fights (heroic moving a line is a key counter to gunlines, heroic fights can be bridged accross multiple units for the single point and get you ahead early) and 3. pretty much more troops. Four Banners is 140pts. That is a pretty good Epic Hero or almost three Captains, or a good Epic plus a Captain. This is just my experience though YMMV.
Author:  Lorizael [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command models: how useful?
YMMV?

It's cool, if either of us was 100% right there would be little point in discussion. I like to question things and to find new things that challenge my way of playing.

It's odd though as I don't rate might that much in my games and never rely on it or ensure I have a lot of it when I construct army lists.
Anything that is one use only has never done it for me in WotR, 40K or WHF. I like stuff I can use for an entire game.
It's good to see other points of view though.
Author:  Xelee [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command models: how useful?
Your mileage may vary.

At its heart, this game is like other battle-line games (with some unbalanced characters thrown in) so it's about holding them across the line by various means and trying to get an edge and win somewhere. I find might a big help to achieving this. The heroic actions are great in different circumstances and putting a point into a stalled charge ensures that it happens the turn it needs to.

What I have found is that it is more efficient to have your upgrades present in teh units you need them to be in, when you need them, than to pay the points to have them everywhere, just in case you need them somewhere. So I am pretty happy to pay for a Captain in a shieldwall unit, since that will always be in the thick of things to be the one to pull several units into a heroic fight and will also benifit from a heroic move if I am doing that with multiple units. Otherwise, I prefer to move the Epics to where they are needed that turn.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Command models: how useful?
Lorizael: I agree wholeheartedly. I find it odd that people put as much emphasise on Might as they do. I think it's handy to have and far more useful in WotR than LotR, but I wouldn't say that it's necessarily important. I find it best to have it as a perk, rather than to expect to need it. That way, you play as tactically sound as you can, rolling with the blows and can concentrate the Might on Heroic Fights and Duels, which (IMO) are the best uses for it (apart from some specific abilities, such as Epic Rampage). But, that's just me.

I also find it ridiculous having to pay 25 points per point of Might because it's really not worth that much, IMO. 15 points if it's used effectively seems fair to me. That's why I really like Shieldbearers and Dragon Knights: you get more use out of them (as well as most of their basic advantage: increased fight value and ability to At the Double!), for less points and still have a point of Might for if you desperately need it.
Author:  Xelee [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Command models: how useful?
I definitely wish the armies I played had access to 25-35pt 1 might heroes.
Author:  General Elessar [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command models: how useful?
Lorizael wrote:
Ok, so why do you guys find banners useful on cavalry but not infantry?
I've always felt it was the other way round seeing as infantry has the lower charge range and so is in more need of the banner re-roll.



Because it's more important that cavalry get the charge. I normally, if I move second, set up my cavalry 9in away from an infantry formation. The infantry, even though they would charge first, can't reach me. I, however, only need a 3 to charge them. Normally, I would succed 66% of of the time. Add a banner however, and it's increased to 88%, a worthwhile investment in my opinion.
Author:  Lorizael [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command models: how useful?
I agree, definitely a worthwhile investment. I've always preferred to give banners to my infantry first just because they can't charge as far.
Of course ideally, everyone gets banners! :)
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