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Epic Strike in Duels
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Author:  midloo [ Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic Strike in Duels
What's the latest word on Epic Strikes and Duels? Can a hero raise their fight to 10 with Epic Strike and then use that fight in a duel? I've seen people play it different ways.

Any battle reports that show the way GW has used it? Anyone have good reasons as to why it should be one way or another?
Author:  hithero [ Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:02 pm ]
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I have read in a GW article that this is now possible - shame as it means automatic victory and slaughter.
Author:  midloo [ Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yes being able to use Epic Strike in a duel runs contrary to some other epic abilities in the game. For instance, should a cheap model with Epic Strike really be able to chump a model with Epic Challenge? The Epic Challenge ability is specifically designed to give them an edge in duels and the models with it seem to cost a bit more.

Ah well...
Author:  Xelee [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:54 am ]
Post subject: 
Midloo, taking the two armies I run (Rohan and Gondor) as examples, it looks like a good majority of the Epic Challenge Heroes also come with Epic Strike. Some of the duelists (ie they get the "roll two, pick highest" mechanic) lack Epic Strike but I think the argument can be made that there are tiers to how effective a duelist is. Aragorn and Boromir are awesome, Eowyn and Erkenbrand less so. The other lists may, or may not, support that interpretation.

I think the bigger question is how exactly to treat the timing of Epic and Heroic abilities so that it all works consistent with the rules. As far as I can see, arguments against Epic Strike hinge on declaring that a hero fighting in a duel is not really starting his 'fight' for the purposes of Epic Strike. So the duel is claimed to begin before his actual fight, which is when he is allowed to call an Epic Strike.

That is not personally my view on how the rules should be read, but I think that is the argument that is made.

If it helps any, I quite like the good work this guy (author unknown, found by Google, but I am not claiming it is in any way my work) has done with a FAQ on how to time all the actions: http://www.scribd.com/doc/15100338/WotR ... ue-FAQ-v11

He allows Epic Strike in duels and because Epic Strike is one of a number of abilities that do not go in the normal 'queue' formed by all the heroic (and some epic) abilites called at the start of each phase.
Author:  Xelee [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Midloo, taking the two armies I run (Rohan and Gondor) as examples, it looks like a good majority of the Epic Challenge Heroes also come with Epic Strike. Some of the duelists (ie they get the "roll two, pick highest" mechanic) lack Epic Strike but I think the argument can be made that there are tiers to how effective a duelist is. Aragorn and Boromir are awesome, Eowyn and Erkenbrand less so. The other lists may, or may not, support that interpretation.

I think the bigger question is how exactly to treat the timing of Epic and Heroic abilities so that it all works consistent with the rules. As far as I can see, arguments against Epic Strike hinge on declaring that a hero fighting in a duel is not really starting his 'fight' for the purposes of Epic Strike. So the duel is claimed to begin before his actual fight, which is when he is allowed to call an Epic Strike.

That is not personally my view on how the rules should be read, but I think that is the argument that is made.

If it helps any, I quite like the good work this guy (author unknown, found by Google, but I am not claiming it is in any way my work) has done with a FAQ on how to time all the actions: http://www.scribd.com/doc/15100338/WotR ... ue-FAQ-v11

He allows Epic Strike in duels and because Epic Strike is one of a number of abilities that do not go in the normal 'queue' formed by all the heroic (and some epic) abilites called at the start of each phase.
Author:  BoromirofIpswich [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:45 am ]
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When WoTR first came out I was of the strong opinion that Epic Strike did not work in duels and that if I was wrong then it would be disastrous for the game (the rule effect that is, not my being wrong!).

From a WD battle report, I think it was the one involving Rohirrim a month or two back, it seems pretty clear that you can use Epic Strike.

After about 40 or so games of WoTR using Epic Strike in duels I've come to the conclusion that it isn't as strong as it appears. For Evil armies it gives those Ringwraiths a 'one-off' defence against heroes and puts players off duelling them with mere heroes. For Good it probably isn't that important as so many heroes have 7+ FV anyway.

As to the slaughter well, yes on rare occasions it can lead to a dozen or so warriors being slain as the winning duelist cuts his way through the formation, but given that each point you win by, on average, is only 1 warrior slain (50% prob of rolling a 2-3 or 6; average from 1D3 = 2) it doesn't usually make much difference. To put this in perspective if Aragorn uses up a Might to call Epic Strike in a duel then on average he's going to slay about 3 extra warriors - not the best use of Might IMHO.

Frankly, I'd rather call an Heroic Fight with that Might - you tend to kill a lot more than 3 figures with that second charge.
Stephen
Author:  midloo [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks for all the thoughtful and clarifying posts!

@Xelee - thanks much for the link. I'll give this a read and present it to the local group to see what they think.



Xelee wrote:
As far as I can see, arguments against Epic Strike hinge on declaring that a hero fighting in a duel is not really starting his 'fight' for the purposes of Epic Strike. So the duel is claimed to begin before his actual fight, which is when he is allowed to call an Epic Strike.


Yes that was the argument I had seen against it.

@BoromirofIpswich - You and I felt the same way at the outset of the game! I played Mordor quite a bit and got tired of how ornery my opponents would get when put down 2 wraiths in a 1500pt force. They seem very overpowered compared to the subtleties of good heroes. But I see what you're saying and agree - Epic Strike in a duel is not a dealbreaker.

Thanks All!
Author:  BoromirofIpswich [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
Xelee,

You don't know how much I hated the game when my regular opponent with his Mordor army put out 5 Ringwraiths (perfectly within the rules ... grrrhh) he now puts out 5 plus the MoS!!!!

The reason, after 12 months, that I have grown to really love the game is that this 'uberforce' is quite easily defeated, and not by going down the route of Counselling (I tried it but I had too few regular troops) or 'Hero heavy' (I tried that with the same drawbacks). It was a steep learning curve, I'll admit that.

Stephen
Author:  General Elessar [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Would anyone ever call an Epic Strike if it didn't apply to duels? Maybe you would if had Goblins or some other formation with a low fight value.
Author:  King Under the Mountain [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Would anyone ever call an Epic Strike if it didn't apply to duels? Maybe you would if had Goblins or some other formation with a low fight value.


Use it with the Dark Marshal leading a formation, giving the entire formation F10.
Author:  BoromirofIpswich [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
A bit of a grey area .... the DM has to say at the beginning of the Fight Phase which unit is using his FV. I'm not entirely sure whether the FV gained is that of the DM right at the beginning of the Fight Phase or at any point during the Fight Phase - if he later calls an Epic Strike is it FV10 as the DM is now, or FV5 as the DM was when he used his ability.

Fairly important distinction, but not earth-shattering, the FV10 gives the average attack another 15 dice, 2.5 extra hits vs D6+ if with standard Orcs/Goblins.

Gut reaction is that the DM's ability is akin to that of Theoden etc., and should only raise the formation to FV5. Though this is open to interpretation.

Stephen
Author:  Xelee [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
BoromirofIpswich wrote:
Xelee,

You don't know how much I hated the game when my regular opponent with his Mordor army put out 5 Ringwraiths (perfectly within the rules ... grrrhh) he now puts out 5 plus the MoS!!!!

The reason, after 12 months, that I have grown to really love the game is that this 'uberforce' is quite easily defeated, and not by going down the route of Counselling (I tried it but I had too few regular troops) or 'Hero heavy' (I tried that with the same drawbacks). It was a steep learning curve, I'll admit that.

Stephen

Lol, perhaps 'hate' would be too strong a reaction in my case. I have faced something like that and it did offend my sense of fairness, in that it looked like intentionally "taking the mickey" given how obviously undercosted it all was. I guess it is the kind of grumbling you might do when playing something that is 'Nintendo hard', before you get on with trying to beat it.

I'd actually be interested in seeing the type of force you use, to see if there is anything I can pick up from it. I've only been playing since December and while my list/gameplan is better, I am sure it can be improved. (PM if it's off thread)

For the record, I do actually use Epic Strike with Faramir just for the extra attacks vs fight 2 + 3. With Heroic fight that is not too shabby vs say Cav and Def 5 and below. That goes double if it's a unit of knights getting the one big hit on infantry.
Author:  Dreadknight [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic Strike
In this month's issue of white dwarf it makes it clear that epic strike can be used in duels.
I had also myself thought it could not as otherwise it was overpowered so I am reassured to read that others find it acceptable in play.
Author:  midloo [ Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
BoromirofIpswich wrote:
Xelee,

The reason, after 12 months, that I have grown to really love the game is that this 'uberforce' is quite easily defeated, and not by going down the route of Counselling (I tried it but I had too few regular troops) or 'Hero heavy' (I tried that with the same drawbacks). It was a steep learning curve, I'll admit that.

Stephen


I'd like to know what you're doing to mitigate that many wraiths! Please post in another thread if you feel it's off topic here (though as OP, you have my blessing :))
Author:  BoromirofIpswich [ Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
At the risk of being 'off topic', though there is a tenuous link (other than Epic Duelling Ringwraiths, how do you get rid of them?); what I have found recently is that by going for *LOTS* of rank and file (which I can do now I've been painting regularly for 12 months) and using these to screen cavalry formations you can blunt the effect of spell-casting.

I regularly now use 3 formations of 6 companies of infantry/archers to obscure my 3 formations of KoMT/SKODA. Mordor throws spell after spell at the screen and even charges on occasion but given that they are 48 strong and have either D5 or D7 they survive for a critical turn or two. I wait until I win priority and then charge. The last couple of games have convinced me that rather than using Might to duel the Wraiths (with the exception of maybe Khamul and the Betrayer) I'm better off 'Heroic Fighting' in order to remove the 'rank and file' that the Wraiths need to hid within.

It has worked for the last three games. There may well be a simple counter-tactic but fortunately my regular opponent hasn't found it.

Stephen
Author:  Xelee [ Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't think it's entirely off-topic Boromirofipswitch, in that tactics like you are using are pretty much why I also use Epic Strike on the charge (as oppossed to dueling) such a large proportion of the time.

My Gondor army has gone to being based around Cav behind a screen (with Epics to jump around) as well. Faramir with an Epic Strike and Heroic fight doubling it can smash a flank on his own.

I've gone this way since Nazgul aren't the only problem, xbow are a big threat as well. Even if you aren't facing a whole lot of too-cheap Arbalesters, you could be facing massed Isengard xbow and that is not something you muck around when fighting.

I agree with you about how to get rid of the Wraiths. Unless they are in an xbow unit that can't be ignored, the Wraith units get to fight my screeners while the Cav goes for the rest of my army. I then just try to wipe out the unit the Wraith is in and get them that way. A good opponent will make you work very hard for that though, so I'm not saying it always works! A firebase of Abalests with the Betrayer in particular makes it much aharder to use Cav well.
Author:  Tankred [ Mon May 17, 2010 3:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
In our german forums we currently discuss when exactly a heroic strike has to be declared. As Hithero mentioned Epic strike seems to work in duels.

In the german discussion we wonder, if declaring a duel prevents that the opposing hero may declare an epic strike as a reaction. Epic actions are considered to be handled in a different way than heroic actions. Actually I am not sure, if hero B can declare an epic strike after hero a declared a duell. Moreover I wonder, how complicated the situation is if both heroes want to declare an epic strike. Any ideas on this?
Author:  Hellfury [ Mon May 17, 2010 3:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
Tankred wrote:
In our german forums we currently discuss when exactly a heroic strike has to be declared. As Hithero mentioned Epic strike seems to work in duels.

In the german discussion we wonder, if declaring a duel prevents that the opposing hero may declare an epic strike as a reaction. Epic actions are considered to be handled in a different way than heroic actions. Actually I am not sure, if hero B can declare an epic strike after hero a declared a duell. Moreover I wonder, how complicated the situation is if both heroes want to declare an epic strike. Any ideas on this?


Seems to me the easiest way to figure it out is that they both get a fight value of 10 if they both call an epic strike.

Why should one be able to call it and the other player not be able to react the same way by calling the same epic action?
Author:  Tankred [ Mon May 17, 2010 4:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, if you handle heroic actions similar to heroic actions, there is a queue of events. If the duell is handled before the epic strike takes place, it is useless.

So my question is, when there is a duell, may any participant declare a epic strike or is is handeled similar to heroic actions?
Author:  Xelee [ Mon May 17, 2010 7:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Epic actions are not the same as heroic actions. The relevant wording is: (p69) "Epic Actions do not always have to be declared at the start of the phase, but are called when the formation is due to act." and "If a Hero declares Epic Strike before he fights..."

The "when he fights" is when he is due to act and the official FAQ confirmed we should consider a duel a fight. So you can just call an Epic Strike when you are going to be in a duel, unlike heroic actions, and their Epic versions (eg Epic Charge etc), which do go in the queue at the start of the phase.
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