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Allied leader
https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=16917		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  King Elessar the Uniter [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Allied leader
Hey guys I've got a general query to ask: can you ally an epic hero to your army as the army's leader, without having an epic hero of your chosen faction in your army?
(Obviously obeying the 25% points allowed to be spent on allies).


E.g. 600pts worth of Gondorian soldiers led by Gandalf the Grey.

^Is that legal?^
Author:  Adanedhel [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Fear not, since you have to choose a leader, a common formation and only then you may opt for allies, in your case i'd suggest either Faramir or Pippin, since both are cheap enough :)
Author:  lordgoober [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Or just use a legendary formation. IMO, I find the Osgiliath Veterans being one of the better ones for the Gondor army.
Author:  King Elessar the Uniter [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ok guys, this was just a general question, not specifically about Gondor - that was just an example I used to show you what I meant.

But it sounds like you can't ally in an army leader without an epic hero/legendary formation of your faction already present in the army list.
Is that correct?
Author:  Hellfury [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
King Elessar the Uniter wrote:
But it sounds like you can't ally in an army leader without an epic hero/legendary formation of your faction already present in the army list.
Is that correct?


From my understanding this is correct.

I am not seeing anywhere that it does specifically state such though. It is more implied I beleive.

1) Choose faction
2) Choose leader
3) First common formation

But because of the order of operations that it could logically be deduced that the leader of the army comes from the faction chosen to be 75% of your army.

That said, I think that epic heroes from any faction could lead an army of another faction, if for no other reason than background. The council of wizardy leading a group of elves to destroy dol guldur, etc.

So I think this question heads into the realm of the dreaded "house rule". Dreaded because unless GW holds your hand detailing a rule, many people simply refuse to play a game of dollies otherwise.

I say its ambiguous enough to allow either interpretation. Go with what your group decides is more fun.
Author:  gaarew [ Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:11 am ]
Post subject: 
Hellfury wrote:

That said, I think that epic heroes from any faction could lead an army of another faction, if for no other reason than background. The council of wizardy leading a group of elves to destroy dol guldur, etc.


That's not a great example, as the Council of Wizardry are under the Forgotten Kingdoms list, and that can only be used to select Allies.


If you follow the steps under the Forging an Army section of the rulebook (pg. 84), firstly, you choose a Faction. So, this will be of the 9 Legal choices. Then you choose your Leader. Since you have already selected a Faction, it follows that you can only choose your Leader from that Faction, which could either be an Epic Hero or a Legendary Formation. (Note that of all the examples listed, none are from the FR list, which suggests, that, as it cannot be selected as a Faction, you can't have a leader from it, otherwise, I'm pretty sure Gandalf would have been mentioned) followed by your compulsory first common formation. You then select the rest of your army.

That's pretty much the convoluted example of what Hellfury said, which I agree with. Considering that is what is written in the book, it would be foolish to do otherwise.

However, I disagree on the ambiguity. When you have chosen your Faction, you must pick your Leader. If you want to argue the Leader can be ANY Epic Hero/Legendary Formation, then, how do you explain the Allies section?

Let's say I want to build a Gondor Army (Faction), then add in Dain Ironfoot (Leader) and a Formation of 4 companies of Warriors of Minas Tirith (1st Common Formation).

So, I have a Gondor Army, led by a Dwarf, and, can spend 250 points on Allies from the Elf, Dwarf, Rohan and FK lists.

Where does Dain's cost come from? The 750+ of my 1000 points, because following the army selection process, I must have a Leader and Common Formation before I select allies. Following the process, if Dain is in my list, he can't be an Ally.

I think it is pretty straightforwards, but if it makes it easier, why do you choose a Faction, then a Leader, rather than choosing a Leader then a Faction?

:-D
Author:  King Elessar the Uniter [ Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Right! Thanks for the help guys! 8)
Author:  Hellfury [ Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
gaarew wrote:
Hellfury wrote:

That said, I think that epic heroes from any faction could lead an army of another faction, if for no other reason than background. The council of wizardy leading a group of elves to destroy dol guldur, etc.


That's not a great example, as the Council of Wizardry are under the Forgotten Kingdoms list, and that can only be used to select Allies.


I am not sure if you misunderstood, but I actually think it is a great example and was chosen specifically because the topic of discussion is asking if it is possible for an allied leader (epic hero, legendary formation) to be the 'leader' of your main army.

Though rereading it I probably should have wrote "...epic heroes from any good faction..." to prevent misinterpretation.

Or am I the one who is misunderstanding? (likely, as holiday distractions make the mind wonderfully clouded)
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