Rookie Misty Mountains Help

River Zora · **Joined:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:57 pm **Posts:** 224

Telchar wrote:

Drums are rather moot on goblins with Nazgul (ie Wings of Terror), banners are moot anyway, and a taskmaster isn't very handy either.
As for magic, you have the three most potent magicans (for their points) in the game in your list, you'd that should be enough

Okay... would I still need a Chieftain in the Warg unit to give them courage, or should I get rid of that too? If I keep the chieftain in I can have seven units of each. If I get rid of it, I can have eight units of each. Or get rid of some and grab some heavy hitters like Cave Trolls or a Drake?

I could go with seven units of each, no upgrades, and a Cave Drake- with Durburz, Khamul, the Betrayer and Druzhag heading up units? Or else go for nine units of each plus a Warg Chieftain to boost that unit...

Advice continue plox!

Telchar · **Posted:** Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:27 pm

I'd loose him first and foremost. Yes, he helps Courage a bit (which isn't that useful anyway), but he is also an absolute liability when you get into combat with a dueling hero (and if your opponent also builds his list to win, those will be there). I'd put Druzhag in the archer formation (because you want him to keep out of combat, and this formation will fight the least. Still, don't be scared of attacking with them after battle is joined and you don't have any targets left), Khamul in the Wargs (to make their low defence into a strength instead of a weakness), and Durburz in the Blackshields (to give them ATD too, and with Epic Strike he can duel the enemy's heroes well). Then the Betrayer goes in a formation you want to make a lot nastier then it already was, depending on the situation.

I'd go with seven companies and a Cave Drake, but watch out what you do with him. Monsters are often a liability, so if you're going for maximum power the nine companies per unit.

And don't forget that you'll want to paint some spiders for Druzhag to summon.

River Zora · **Joined:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:57 pm **Posts:** 224

Thanks! I like how this is sounding so far

I wanted to at least have one monster- seems a shame not to have any in a MM list when there's so much choice!

In a higher points list, say 2,000 or 3,000, do drums and captains become more uselful, or still a waste of points? And what's a better use of 500pts- a Spellcaster Dragon, a Balrog, or a couple of Stone Giants, if I wanted more monsters? As for ally points at higher levels- should I get a Shade in, bulk up on as many Ringwraiths as possible, or go for a full band of Morranon Orcs+Gothmog to mix it up a bit?

Telchar · **Posted:** Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:37 pm

At higher points (2000 points upwards) a few banners and captains for your key formations become very handy, and a drum (an ordinary one that is) never really was a waste of points.

The Balrog is rather much inferior to the Dragon, but two stone giants is also very daunting to face. If you still want as much power as possible - ally in Kardush, Gothmog and Arbalesters. And Ringwraiths never hurt. Morannons are actually inferior to your native Blackshields, and a shade isn't that handy, unless you have several duelling heroes fighting you and want to keep your ringwraiths safe at all costs.

River Zora · **Joined:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:57 pm **Posts:** 224

Thanks for the advice guys, I now think I know what I will field at 1000, 1500, 2000, and 3000, and an idea on what to proxy/convert for a stone giant.

Next step is painting everything! We set a date for the first match. We are battling in 500pt increments. Starting with 500pts in two Thursday's time! He will be playing Dwarfs. Should be fun!

Final issue then is: of all I've decided, what on earth makes it into a 500 list? A ringwraith and both heroes? Swarms of little dudes? A cave drake? Advice, once more, away!

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:21 am

Even at 2000pts I say no no to banners and captains. You shouldn't do that, still too wasteful. Just Epic Heroes, Monsters anbd formations. You should take 2 Stone Gaints at 2,000pts.

The Cave Drake is not very good, and bats are only useful if you are blackmist.

At 500pts Durburz is the only hero you should have, epic or otherwise. Not including a Ringwraith of course, because you can nevrr go wrong with one of them.

Telchar · **Posted:** Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:07 pm

Gothmog, I agree on banners with you, but I can see that for others they might start being useful for key formations here. Why the 2 stone giants? I would personally prefer the "point-and-click-death" power and massive psychological impact of the dragon.

You're right on the others though. It's only River Zora really wanted to bring a monster.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:05 am

2 Stone Ginats over 1 Dragon you ask?

Well, if they fluke a kill early on against the dragon, then its dead and bye goes a quarter of your pts. If tha happens to a ginat, you still have the other. They can also cover more ground. The only problem is they have to use Durburz's might.

GodlessM · **Posted:** Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:00 pm

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Even at 2000pts I say no no to banners and captains. You shouldn't do that, still too wasteful.

I agree on the Banners and Drummers and such, but not on the Captains. Captains provide At the Double to formations with no Epic Hero in them, provide heroic actions, provide defense against magic, and provide Courage and Fight. For a small formation it may not be worth it, but for anything 4 and up that's a great bargain for 50pts.

Telchar · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:59 am

But captains are also a horrible liability when you meet someone like Aragorn, Boromir, Dain or even Thrydan.

@ Gothmog: if they make an early kill on a dragon, they have insane amounts of luck and you've played it wrong. It only dies on a roll of 15! That's at least nine wounds! If you hold it behind your lines, then fly it over and cast Exsiccate, the earth-shatter-spell and Bolt of Fire each turn, that shouldn't be a problem.

River Zora · **Joined:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:57 pm **Posts:** 224

Telchar wrote:

@ Gothmog: if they make an early kill on a dragon, they have insane amounts of luck and you've played it wrong.

Or just two sixes and a four... wouldn't that roll kill it first go?

Also- a celebration! I've painted and based my first formation and trays!

Only a three-strong of Wargs, but it's nice to see it finally taking shape

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:04 pm

Twp 6s and 4 is a no. You do not add up the D6 results. You roll again. But some people do get really lucky.

Also, those Wargse look nice. :yay:

One small step for Wargs. One giant leap for Wolfkind.

River Zora · **Joined:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:57 pm **Posts:** 224

Ah, so six sixes would kill him in one turn? The first roll adding a wound, the next adding a wound, then two, then two, then the fifth taking him up to nine wounds, which a sixth natural six would finish off, right? Guess it's possible!

Also I've been working on this, not for any army, just as a piece. Still got Saruman and Sulrandir (Sharkey) to go!

PS: Their skin isn't that orange in real life, that's the flash ><

River Zora · **Joined:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:57 pm **Posts:** 224

So, for my Wraith in a 500pt game, would you guys recommend taking Khamul, or the Betrayer?

GodlessM · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:36 pm

Telchar wrote:

But captains are also a horrible liability when you meet someone like Aragorn, Boromir, Dain or even Thrydan.

So F7 vs F3, assuming average rolls wins by 4, rolls 4 time on the table, kills the Captain, and with 4 rolls let's assuming 1 of each catagory, so 4 other models as well. Not a huge loss. If he uses Epic Strike as well, he gets another ~3 guys. Still just one supporting company. In the units I think you should take Captains in (4+ at least, but definitely in 5+) that one company isn't the biggest loss, especially now that that Hero is down two points of Might (one for Aragorn of course).

That's not to mention that these heroes you need to worry about can only be in one place at one time, and chances are even without the Captain their presence charging you was ill news.

And to be honest, I'd rather have all the options the Captain brings for those majority of times where he is not a liability rather than forgo them for the minority of times when he is.

But like I said, I wouldn't put them in any unit, just I wouldn't dismiss them right off the bat. I wouldn't put them in Archers, and I wouldn't put them in most cavalry (with the exception of Kataphrakts who have the Dragon Knight to duel with). I also wouldn't put them in an infantry unit of less than 4 companies, and even with 4 companies, I'd want the unit to be an important one.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:55 pm

River Zora wrote:

So, for my Wraith in a 500pt game, would you guys recommend taking Khamul, or the Betrayer?

Khamul is the King of course so him.

I like your Council of Wizardry by the way, you are actually doing just the way I thought of doing it. Which saruman do you have?

Captains are very useful for crossbowmen. Not the best for most things. Do not take Captains in 4 coy formations of infantry. You cannot afford to waste taht many lives. Try 6 coys.

GodlessM · **Posted:** Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:16 am

River Zora wrote:

Also I've been working on this, not for any army, just as a piece. Still got Saruman and Sulrandir (Sharkey) to go!

This is an incredible idea, very inspiring.

Telchar · **Posted:** Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:32 pm

GodlessM wrote:

Telchar wrote:

But captains are also a horrible liability when you meet someone like Aragorn, Boromir, Dain or even Thrydan.

So F7 vs F3, assuming average rolls wins by 4, rolls 4 time on the table, kills the Captain, and with 4 rolls let's assuming 1 of each catagory, so 4 other models as well. Not a huge loss. If he uses Epic Strike as well, he gets another ~3 guys. Still just one supporting company. In the units I think you should take Captains in (4+ at least, but definitely in 5+) that one company isn't the biggest loss, especially now that that Hero is down two points of Might (one for Aragorn of course). 25% of your formation gone in one phase, not counting even the strikes of his troops? Sounds rather bad to me. And yes, they'll only be in one place, but if you play competitively, you can count on that being an important place.

That's not to mention that these heroes you need to worry about can only be in one place at one time, and chances are even without the Captain their presence charging you was ill news. But adding a captain is paying 50 points to make it worse.

And to be honest, I'd rather have all the options the Captain brings for those majority of times where he is not a liability rather than forgo them for the minority of times when he is. I personally don't think all that much of them, ATD is the only good thing they bring and that's why there are Epic heroes. Captains are really only good when you get into the really high points range where you have more "core" formations then epics.

But like I said, I wouldn't put them in any unit, just I wouldn't dismiss them right off the bat. I wouldn't put them in Archers, and I wouldn't put them in most cavalry (with the exception of Kataphrakts who have the Dragon Knight to duel with). I also wouldn't put them in an infantry unit of less than 4 companies, and even with 4 companies, I'd want the unit to be an important one. Agreed. And in the 1000-1500 points range, that shouldn't leave more formations then the ones that'll hold your epics. Certainly in this list, which has very few formations anyway.

River Zora wrote:

So, for my Wraith in a 500pt game, would you guys recommend taking Khamul, or the Betrayer?

Khamul. He'll kill (on average) 1/3 of a formation with your opponent and save 1/3 in your own army. When you only have 2 formations (as you will with 500 points), that's more then filthy, it's murder.

Epic wargs and nice council by the way.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:52 am

Telchar wrote:

Epic wargs and nice council by the way.

Epic Wargs? Is that a new Epic Action the for Druzhag, Druzhag can expendf one might point to increase the strength of 1 formation of Wargs by +4 ,or something? lol

Telchar · **Posted:** Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:24 am

If only, Gothmog, if only.

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