I've been doing some planning for my Rohan WotR force. I'm mostly wanting a nearly all mounted army but was looking at some options for a small, solid core of foot troops to help anchor the force. After reading the BR in GW's site regarding Rohan vs Isengard I was intrigued by the apparent usefulness of Grimbold's Helmingas. After looking at the book today though I'm not sure about their value.

A basic Oathsworn Militia lets you have a Captain and Banner for the standard points and you can get six Companies for 120pts. With the Helmingas you get Grimbold and a banner for the base cost (same points as a Captain + Banner for the Militia) but can only get four Companies of warriors for the 120pts.

OK, thought I, there must be some goof differences to justify this Legendary Formation. Well, I don't see them. Grimbold is stat-for-stat no better than a generic Rohan Captain. The warriors get one extra point of Str and one point of Courage, but does it justify 10pts per Company? The Courage is only really applicable if you loose your leader and your banner and need to Courage test. I'd say it's not much of a factor in this decision. So 10pts for +1 Str?

It would seem to me that the Militia with 2 extra Companies would hold out longer and do more damage than a smaller force of Helmingas in most situations (not to mention giving you more Common Formations / Companies).

So, with little difference in points and no special rules am I overlooking something to justify this Formation's design?

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Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

There is generally a 5 point per increased statistic method of working out costs (although points are skewed left, right and centre). However, if Grimbold is killed by Black Dart or in a Heroic Duel (which is just as likely to happen as to a Rohan Captain, possibly more so), then the Courage will come into play.

That's about the best that I can say, however. Having said that, S4 should not be underestimated, especially with throwing weapons (which I believe they have).

Good point about the Str4 throwing weapons. As a big fan of throwing weapons in both SBG and WotR I am embarassed to say I was overlooking that. With Str4 both thrown and melee (and Courage when it does come in) they may be worth the extra 10pts aftrall, I still wish Grimbold had an extra Might or Courage to help him stand out from his generic counterparts though.

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Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

How do you feel about taking Gondorian foot as allies.

My Rohan lists have no Rohirrim on foot. That's not how they roll (IMO).

So I've run them with 2 formations of Rangers or 2 WoMT or a mix.

It may not be your thing.

Gondor foot would be the best. It's how I intend to run mine, but only because I am 'morphing' accross from a Gondor army.

IMO, while not as optimum as MT Warriors, both Oathsworn militia and Royal Guard on foot are good choices.

For a force that takes place at or after the defense of Minas Tirith, I wouldn't mind using Gondor mixed with Rohan, but as I have a LOT of unpainted Rohan models ("Valiant Rohirim" set before discontinued and 2-3 boxes of Riders of Rohan) but no Gondor I'm probably doing to be "pure" Rohan for a while at least.

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Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

That's an important point. So, back to your original question.

I'm thinking the choice depends on your opponents. If you're facing Isengaurd Uruk Hai most of the time, or, a Mordor player who takes Morannon orcs in lieu of Morder orcs, then I'm thinking the extra strength will be useful to get through that higher Defense.

However if you're up against Moria goblins and common Mordor orcs, you'll need the numbers when it comes to the scrum.

Depending on how many foot units you're taking, one of each would give you tactical flexibility to put a mass of troops where you need to hold the line or objective and some slightly hittier troops to dish the pain on a tough unit.

Hope that helps.

One of the great things about many of the Rohan lists is that the same warrior model can really be used for about anything as long as it's obvious to your opponent what it represents. For example, if I use a generic Captain then they are just Oathsworn Militia. If I use the Grimbold model then they become the Helmlingas Legendary Formation. Just swap in a $12 Hero and you have a whole new Formation.

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Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

WOTR doesn't quite work like that White Tower

A point of strength helps versus 'every other' level of defense. So for example, str4 is the same as str 3 vs def 3 but better vs def 4. By far the most common defenses you will encounter, including the Isengard, Morrannan and standard Orcs in your example, all have odd numbered defenses and str3 is just as good as str4.

Where str 4 would help is vs Evil players with Dunlendings or Carn Dum warband or Gundabad blackshields. The only two forces I can think of off the top of my head where I'd expect to see a predominance of even defenses (def 4(6) ) are Galadrim based elves and, if they are smart, Angmar based around Carn Dum warband.

To be honest, I would always prefer to just have either Oathsworn militia or Royal Guard on foot than that Grimbold unit. The choice between the two types of foot would be between not how higher the defense of your opponents was, but how much damage you want to dish out and how likely you are to lose combats. It's very hard to to control the def of what you are fighting, but it is fair to say that the defense of the line troops you face will generally be odd numbered.

Royal knights on foot die only half as often as milita vs str3/4 and have higher courage and the captain has fight 5, though if Epic strike is allowed in duels then I am leery of too many captains. This makes them a solid anvil unit for the center of the line. I especially like these vs enemy bow/xbow.

Militia are just over half the cost so can be twice as big, this is as good as higher def in melee but I prefer def to numbers vs missile. Being twice as big is nothing to sneeze at when throwing weapons come into play. Further, 20pt bow is one of my favourite trooptypes in WOTR. An additional benifit is that a lot of things in WOTR just autokill models, especially a lot of the evil magic combos, so extra bodies are always handy there. The one issue with bodies over defense is that it is a risk in closely fought combats, where you will tend to 'lose' more often.

On a personal note, while MT foot are effective, I really want Rohan foot for my own new force. But a budget is a budget.

Just regarding the Epic Strike in Duels (which we now have confirmed is valid), it's not "free" for almost all Heroes. Most will have to spend one of their precious Might to get Epic Strike. If a Hero has Epic Strike just don't call an Heroic Duel on him. If he wants to spend a point of Might to do it, and then another point of Might to get Epic Strike, then he's down to just one point left.

Captains are great for many things such as a small pool of Might, basic Heroic Actions (allowing your Epic Heroes to keep Might for more important things), At the Double, etc. If I'm facing an enemy and he wants to burn Epic Strike to take out a 50 point Captain then let him. And if you are worried that he'll save his Epic Stirke Might for when you go at him with an Epic Hero of your own, throw some spells at him or other reasons to burn a little Might and then hit him with a Captain. Let him Epic Strike your Captain and then follow up next turn with your own major Hero when he has no Might left. There are VERY few Heroes in the game that have both Epic Strike and Touched By Destiny.

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Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

When they use Epic Strike on the Captain, it is not the Captain they are going after. The idea is to get 'two bites of the cherry' and get another bump to allow you to take down even the more solid formations that smarter players take with your own first hit.

So you charge in - pull an Epic Strike - it boosts the attacks of one company a bit (even more with heroic fight being called by one of the involved formations) but better yet makes at very likely that not only will the captain go, there will be a series of auto - kills to add to combat resolution. Since heroic fight is also in play, then you will probably be going again and then you also get the benefit of the Epic Strike to fight once more. The sum total of it all is that you get a lot of benefit out of the Epic strike and heroes like Faramir, Isildur, Durburz, Eomer and so on don't pay much over a Captain to get it.

The Captain is merely an easy bridge to make the combo pretty much a 'sure thing'.

It's not so bad having it done to you as infantry, but it is crippling as Cav - since it goes before your own hits and you are only half as durable as inf.

Good point on the hits on the troops. Shortly after I wrote that and stepped away I was considering that point again.

Again, some of this is just a factor of power-gaming and we don't suffer that in our group so I just don't always think of some of that. Yes, if we have someone that has Epic Strike in their army I can assure you that they will do to their best to use it (I have made sure my powerful Heroes kill off as many troops during a Duel as possible, and it's a favorite tactic of our Dwarf player too). But at the same time I don't think anyone in our local circle would ever stack a list with Epic Strike Heroes just for that reason.

Likewise with the Counselor "trick" to push up Might. If someone took two Counselor models in their force I would say you would be far more likely to see them placed in different parts of the army to support other key Epic Heroes. If one of our players ever had two Counselors that started "helping" each other like that just to build up a Might pool over a couple turns we would let them know how cheezy that is and you would never see that again at our store.

When we prep for tourneys we scour various other forums for discussions / tricks like this to be ready for what we might see, and we will sometimes have "training session" days where people bring multiple lists we would not normally play locally to exercise our forces. But with almost no tourney support from GW any more that's not too much of a factor.

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Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it going. My first ever game of WOTR I was taught the Epic Strike lesson when I charged a unit of Goblins with some Cav. Unfortunately the Goblins had Durburz and the Cav had a Captain... That reversed what should have been a Heroic Fight double charge into a loss for the Cav.

There are plenty of times where it will come up just through hitting lists that have Epic Strike heroes for other reasons. Gondor is always going to be full of them for instance and they are in quite a few other lists as well. The players involved aren't going to not use the ability when it presents itself.

Personally, I take characters/captains/shieldbearers/dragon knights etc to try and deal as much damage as I can to the unit via Heroic Duels, with a hope to killing captains/characters too. Having said that, Epic Strike isn't something that I'd normally use in a Duel, unless it was called against me and I stood little chance of winning. I'd use it defencively in a Duel or primarily for killing more troops normally (as in, not via Duelling), but that's me and I try not to power game.

If most of your force is cavalry, then one of the primary purposes of the few infantry formations you have will be to capture defensive terrain features, right? In that case, the smaller formation, Grimbold's Helmingas, will be able to occupy a greater a variety of terrain features.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

I was thinking of the same thing myself. Strength 4 is only really worth taking against units that have an even value for their defense like 6 and 8. I decided to take the oathsworn militia cause they are cheap and don't take up much of your army leaving it open for taking more Cavalry.
I also think cheap strength 3 throwing weapons are class. These brave sheep farm unit actually are my sacrificial unit as a send then in to throw buckets and spades then charge the biggest unit while eomer with six companies of eored charge the left flank and theorden with deorwine and six companies of the kings guard plow through the right.
all round grimbold is good in big games and scenarios but not in smaller games.

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