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Combat Heroes and You
https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32863		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  mr. dude [ Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Combat Heroes and You
I wanted to start a discussion about your particular tricks with the big combat machines. No particular theme, I just want us to discuss them in general.

My problem is that I tend to undervalue the power of a dismounted combat hero. I remember spending an entire game hiding Gothmog because my opponent had a handful of archers and I didn't trust a dismounted Gothmog's killing potential.

Earlier today, I used my Bolg for the very first time. Turn 1: he loses his Warg. I thought "game over". A couple of turns later, Bolg had almost singlehandedly wiped out my opponent's warband. By the end of the game, Bolg had killed 13 of my opponent's 38 models. All while on foot. Granted, that's Bolg and he's a freak, but I feel like I would have been more conservative with him if he was still on his Warg; for fear of losing the Warg.

This leads to the next thought I've been cooking up: the relationship between combat heroes and Might. Is it there to lead their troops, or is it there to Heroic Combat? In my game today, Bolg was already at 7 kills by his second turn of combat because I burned through his Might on Heroic Combats, and that won me the game. This depends on what else is in your army, I feel like a combat hero needs two things to be able to function: 1) a second big combat threat to take the heat off and not eat every immobilize your opponent will cast (or alternatively a spellcaster), and 2) a Might caddy for all those Heroic Moves and such. Maybe the super might-heavy heroes don't desperately need the Might caddy, but I feel like the 3/3/3 guys will need to be spending that carefully to make up their points.

Anyway, that's my ramble for now. Discuss whatever you find interesting about the big heroes here. Which ones do you like best?
Author:  McGarnacle [ Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Combat Heroes and You
Of the big heroes, I think they fall into 2 pots: People who can do damage which avoiding spellcasters, and those who deal a lot of damage but aren't worth immobilising.

Pot 1 contains stuff like Glorfindel with his Armour of Gondolin. This increases his magic survivability and means he can do what he does best. Another one is something with an Elven Cloak, like Thranduil on foot. He can still dish out a lot of damage, but can also avoid a bit of spellcasting.

Pot 2 contains things which aren't worth keeping tied down all game. The other side has a lot of points spent of a spellcaster; if your hero is cheaper, they won't pay for themselves by stopping you, which is what you want. Good guys to not be worth stopping who can still lay on the hurt are captains with +1 to wound or Strength 5. Hasharin and King's Champions also fit this bill well. Named heroes in the mid points range are also excellent, because they are cheaper then the magic user sent to stop them.

And those are my rambling thoughts. I'm sure I said something here which some of the more experienced players will disagree with, but since I play with only 1 other person, our meta is quite separate from the general meta :).
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Combat Heroes and You
Big heroes do indeed perform great on steeds. However, they don't *HAVE* to be mounted. Is their statistical reasons to always mount them on a steed? Heck yes, but they can be just as effective on foot as they can on horseback. As already mentioned, my big heroes (or beat-sticks as I call them) perform best when I can field them with a budget hero (heroes who cost 100 or less points). This divides the attention of my opponent. It also improves the effectiveness of my budget hero.

The real trick to effectively using a beat-stick (IMO) is to ensure you have enough high priority targets on the table so your opponent doesn't focus all their efforts on a single lynch pin. If you have, for example, a beat-stick, a budget hero, a banner, and perhaps a spell caster/sniper (depending on your point total) on the table, your opponent will have to determine who is the most important target to remove first. This will allow you to press your attack using one of your other priority assets once your opponent prioritizes their defense. A reactionary opponent will then shift their tactics once they see a flank start to fall due to this multi-prong assault.

The success of your force should never rely on a single model. As was already pointed out, single points of failure (such as being dismounted) will cause your force to unravel very quickly. Some of my most successful games occurred after my beat-stick was destroyed and my budget hero took command. Since my opponent had sunk a majority of their resources into my beat-stick, all my budget hero had to do was clean up once the dust settled.
Author:  McGarnacle [ Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Combat Heroes and You
So basically to summarize what we both said, budget heroes are pretty great. Golden King, Vrasku and Faramir are really great.
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Combat Heroes and You
Yes, although, I'm not convinced the Golden King is a budget hero (as defined by my costs <100 points qualification. But that is neither here nor there). 4A, +1 to wnd, counts as a banner, and can literally bribe people to leave the battlefield. If I were to classify him as a budget hero, he would certainly be a top tier budget hero! In addition to what has already been mentioned, Halbarad, Cirion, Madril, Eomer (the original one), Mauhur, Arathorn, Generic capts, all great budget heroes! All of whom are often over-looked because they aren't classified as a beat-stick. And if you can mount them, all the better. However, once mounted, they become a higher priority target and start to cross into the beat-stick realm.

Speaking of Faramir, he performed so well as a budget hero (on foot) in one of my last matches, my opponent prioritized him over Boromir, CotWT during our following match.
Author:  McGarnacle [ Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Combat Heroes and You
What do you run /w Faramir and Boromir? I'm trying to figure out how to make my Gondor work better with those 2.
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Combat Heroes and You
Osgiliath veterans, rangers and WoMT. It featured at 500 points
Warband 1
Boromir, Captain of the White Tower

Warband 2
Faramir (hvy armor)
6 WoMT w/Shield (1 w/banner)
6 Osgiliath veterans w/spear and shield

Warband 3
Beregond
5 Rangers of Gondor w/Spear
5 WoMT w/Shield

I plan to rebuild it in the future and use Citadel guard with spear and long bow as opposed to rangers and maybe add in some cavalry.
Author:  mr. dude [ Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Combat Heroes and You
In the LoME days, my go to army was led by Shagrat (cheaper version), a Morannon Captain, and Shelob. I did really well with this setup and won a fair few tournaments for the reasons you guys have outlined: there just aren't worthy targets to take out.

Nowadays, I'm more interested in using bigger heroes, they only ever work for me in an all-or-nothing setup: either multiple big beatsticks or none at all. We can still build on jdizzy's idea of budget heroes, but I think that they have to be threats unto themselves. A mounted captain with a lance, something with lots of might, etc

Granted, I understand your point about the damage already having been done by the time the beatstick dies, and all the captain needs to do is mop up, that is interesting. My issue is, in the "Big Hero, Cheap hero" setup, the exact opposite tends to happen to me and the game just revolves around the single big hero.
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Combat Heroes and You
Anything that draws attention away from one hero and allows the other hero to wreak havoc sounds like a good day in my book!
Author:  fangorn [ Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Combat Heroes and You
I've found that fielding a big hero such as Elrond/Gilgalad/Glorfindel works best when you have a smaller hero with them, such as Erestor (who is amazing points-wise), or Legolas. On the other hand, if you have a big hero, points tend to run out easily, so sticking to generic captains, etc. might be better to get a few more bodies on the field.
Author:  mr. dude [ Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Combat Heroes and You
Fair enough, it all depends on playing style and what you're trying to achieve with the army. The army I used that got me thinking about this had both Bolg and Gothmog at 650, the presence of Gothmog is what allowed Bolg to do everything that he did. On the other hand, if I wanted to get more numbers (I think I was at 39) then I could have dropped one of them for a minor captain and loaded another half(ish) warband in there, which would have changed what the army was about. Bolg would have been more of an accessory in the horde than the focal point of all the killing. That's part of the planning that goes into it.
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Combat Heroes and You
Magic users also play into this as a well timed immobilize will ruin your day
Author:  mr. dude [ Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Combat Heroes and You
That's exactly it, you need to have a way of mitigating magic, hence why I only feel safe with multiple threats.
Author:  Luizasso [ Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Combat Heroes and You
Most of the time I win because of a secondary hero like Grimbold or a regular captain after the main one has died.

My last game was Arnor (grey company) vs Mordor, and Arnor won because of a mounted Halbarad just wouldn't stop killing the morannon orcs even after Elladan and Elrohir had been killed by the fellbeast.

It all comes down to having more than a single card to play. The Big heroes can win games alone, but how long until Bolg gets trapped by those warriors of minas tirith and loses a fight? When that happens what do you have on the table that can still threaten you opponent?

Heroes like Forlong, Erestor, Captains with lances and the King's Huntsman are all threats that must be dealt with. But they usually are left alone by the opponent because it's not worth it (points wise) to send a fellbeast or Shagrat to kill them.

One army that has caught my eye in this regard is Laketown Survivors. Bard, despite being F5, can kill a fellbeast in a single turn with his greatbow, and buffs the FV of the militia, in addition to being a banner. He is a prime target, but then there is Percy making the militia as good as the Rangers when it comes to shooting, and Hilda Bianca gives +1 to wound when the militia charge. Obviously the first target should be Bard, but his greatbow has twice the range of the spells. And while you are trying to deal with Bard, the now F3 militia have the advantage when facing morannon orcs or gundabad orcs/blackshields thanks to Hilda and Bard's banner effect.
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