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| Anti-Good Hero meta https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31919 |
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| Author: | ketara [ Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Anti-Good Hero meta |
I've been trying to ascertain the best ways of dealing with powerful Good heroes beyond the usual 'Immobilise and then throw a troll at it' the Evil side generally has to use. So far, I've come up with two unlikely looking candidates, namely the Gundabad Blackshield Shaman, and the Dead Marsh Spectre. The Gundabad chap seems pretty naff except for the fact that he candestroy a hero's equipment. That takes it's toll on a number of the big hitters (Gil-Galad, Aragorn, etc), and even a reasonable number of smaller ones (Balin for example). It can also crack wizard staffs to stop them spamming out magic. Without their favourite toys, they're a lot less deadly, methinks. The second one I've identified is the Dead Marsh Spectres. Granted, they're not up to much in combat, but their 'Fell Light is in them' special rule is quite nice. Park one or two of them behind your main battle-line safely shielded from bowshot, and you can occasionally dictate where your enemy hero moves by throwing them into a troll, or out of the battle area altogether. They're not amazing, and they won't pull it off every turn, but if you have a ringwraith nearby to combo with (lowering courage), it should be able to potentially disrupt an enemy hero quite considerably once or twice per game for a bargain 15 points. Does anyone else here have any experience in using these two? Is there some great flaw I'm missing with them? |
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| Author: | jdizzy001 [ Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
Fell light won't be successful very often due to good heores having a courage ranging from a 5 to 6. Barrow wight might be more successful with there paralyze power. That being said, it is fun to use specters to chase people away. Another good ghost is the shade. However, they cost a lot more to field. I've never used gundabad shamans. There spell looks great, i dont know how it plays out though so I cant speak to it. |
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| Author: | ketara [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
jdizzy001 wrote: Fell light won't be successful very often due to good heores having a courage ranging from a 5 to 6. Barrow wight might be more successful with there paralyze power. That being said, it is fun to use specters to chase people away. . I was thinking more along the fact that if you stick them next to a Ringwraith (which drops courage by 1 for 12", the same range as the spell), you'd probably pull it off more often. Especially if the enemy has low will, meaning you can whack him with a 'drain courage' spell until you practically auto-control the enemy model! Lastly, it's only 15 points per use per turn. So if you're taking a ringwraith already anyway, it looks like an incredibly cheap power to chuck in for synergy. He'd also go nicely with the Golden King. Barrow-wights look nice, but at 50 points, they just feel a little too pricey. |
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| Author: | Galanur [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
Ohh trust me, the´re not pricey for a spell on a 4+ the target get permanently paralized, which means loses combats and all and can´t move only if he wakes up on a 6, or some 1 wake him up. Its "the upgrade version" of the compel basically.. And still its on a wight with D7, so not exactly squishy, and to add another good advantage, that wight got Courage 6, so awesome stand fast for nearby orcs to relie upon, a basic non naz heroe with courage 6 its very very very rare. (not even the mighty azog got courage 6, only the black guard captain do if Sauron or a ringwraith are in the field). The best heroe nightmare armies that you see out there its generally compromised by a portion of your force being made of spirits, nazguls, barrow wights, shades, specters... the´re aint easy things to play with so I dont recommend new starters for that. But on the right hand and on the right turns, they can prove vital to pin point nasty heroes like durin, aragorn and such.... The only 2 models tht at 1st can give big trouble to a barrow wight its Galadriel lady of light and legolas. More legolas than Galadriel in short run cause Galadriel need to cast the spell and the wight still got Will points to try to resist, not so much that happen with leggy auto shoot where he just need might points to adjust the value to kill that wight. Smaller games like 500pts I just recommend 1 wight, if you do know you´re facing elves, take 2, trust me leggy can´t spend all game long needing 6s to get 1 wight down every single turn. and a burned might ponit killing 1 then another, he wont have hands to handle the rest. |
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| Author: | Galanur [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
This was my idea at 500pts some time ago, its basic but can be interesting noneless... Nasty 500pts Warband 1 Burdhur, Troll Chieftain 4 Angmar orcs with shield 3 Angmar orcs with spear(1x with shield) 1 Specter Warband 2 Barrow Wight 5 Orc Trackers Warband 3 Orc Shaman 5 Angmar orcs with shield 5 Angmar orcs with spear Warband 4 The Witch King (3/10/3) on horse 4 Orc Trackers 1 Specter total: 500pts |
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| Author: | jdizzy001 [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
ketara wrote: jdizzy001 wrote: Fell light won't be successful very often due to good heores having a courage ranging from a 5 to 6. Barrow wight might be more successful with there paralyze power. That being said, it is fun to use specters to chase people away. . I was thinking more along the fact that if you stick them next to a Ringwraith (which drops courage by 1 for 12", the same range as the spell), you'd probably pull it off more often. Especially if the enemy has low will, meaning you can whack him with a 'drain courage' spell until you practically auto-control the enemy model! Lastly, it's only 15 points per use per turn. So if you're taking a ringwraith already anyway, it looks like an incredibly cheap power to chuck in for synergy. He'd also go nicely with the Golden King. Barrow-wights look nice, but at 50 points, they just feel a little too pricey. Yes that would make them more effective. Keep in mind, the most commonly rolled number on a 2d6 is 7 and all good models have at least a courage 3 (7+3=courage pass). I'm not trying to dissuade you from your idea, just trying to help you think of contingencies. |
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| Author: | Farmer Maggot [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
Good force Galanur, the only change I’d suggest is to take the Witch-King instead of a generic Ringwraith. If you’re taking 2/10/2 you’ll get him for the same points and have access to Your Staff Is Broken. |
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| Author: | Galanur [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
Indeed, you are correct. The only way I took the generic wraith was basically cause when some 1 think of the Witch King, every 1 wana take that with full might caps cause hes an important character. But you had a pretty good insight without requiring to go off the regular list asking for mordor allies to complement. :) Taking that sneaky little chance because I can I just removed 2 orcs to bump that wraith 3/10/3 to be a portion more effective using the might points for heroic moves and still have might left to call of a channeled spell in case need be, and 3 fate because well, who knows when he might struggle in nasty occasions and dissuade nasty other heroes to take on him so lightly. And Jdizzy, although the random 2D6 its 7 which its the average of courage 3, do not underestimate a 2+ courage drain from a wraith, thats the cheapest spell ever, and 1 your oponent might let it go off without needing Will points to burn it all up at 1st. When your oponent start to get awared that the courage might be a problem, he will waste will points to invest on resisting it. The list I made above its super good at that effect. The Witch King pop a drain courage, just a regular, normally people let the heroe bump the courage down by -1 (now hes effectively -2 thx to the harbinger, but still no biggie). Now the 2nd turn the Witch King bump a sap will, the Heroe then its likely to resist the spell and very likely he wont get the effect cause he will use Will points enough to resist its effect(and potencially get him left with 1 Will point) By this time the Witch King used effectively 3 Will points at best. Now the 3rd turn the Witch King call´s out a channeled Drain courage. Now comes the big decision, will the heroe let his courage bump down major or will he use the last will point to resist it? cause the Witch king hardly used half his will store still and more compels are on its ways (as its likely you wont kill the ringwraith right away cause of his D8 and 3 Fate points). If you do not resist your heroe will be likely to get at courage 2 by now and then the fun begins... as the specters will try to pull him toward burdhur as the barrow wight will use Will to call a paralize, the incomin result prob wont kill the heroe (if hes a nasty one), but will pretty much hinder him so badly that he wont recover so well. After this, witch King use 3 will (bumping him down to 4 Will points left and shoot off a Black Dart (or channeled) this should get the heroe dead azap without much of an efford. And all this happened just while using the orcs as cannon fodder most of the time. This is an example how good combinations can make things annoying on the long run. Your oponent wont see the specters as a nasty threat if they dont start pulling off their ability. Primary targets of this list its basically Burdhur cause hes an annoying troll with 3 might, something hardly seen. The barrow wight, cause no 1 wanna get paralized The Witch KIng, its not because of the drain courage, its basically cause of the compel and transfix, so people generally tend to let it pass the sneaky lil spells that dont do much of a role at start, in which will make em regret in the long run. I did this once on Gil Galad, the elf King ate a drop down to courage 6 turn one. And tried to thrown a paralize with 2D6, he used 1 Will and sucessfully resisted. Turn 2 he charged 2 orcs, I Sap Will him, he used 1 dice to resist and he managed with a lucky dice. He called an heroic combat, killed the orcs and went for the ringwraith, he won combat and dealt 2 wounds(with 1 might) (I managed to Fate it out with 2 Fate points). Turn 3 (my turn) channeled Drain Courage, he let him drop 3 points (getting him to courage 2 with harbinger around). ringwraith ran off. Specters called him to the Burdhur (he managed to resist it once) Barrow wight called a paralize with all the remain Will, he failed to resist with his dice remain. Burdhur beast him in combat inflicted 3 wounds, he saved one. Next turn, Burdhur called an heroic march, every 1 backed off big time, wraith burned 3 Will, shoot a black dark, use the 2nd might to bump the roll to kill = dead king. And now my force was basically flanking the remain elves around which was pretty much around 20 elves and a captain...And I still had pretty much an intact force (only lost 7 orcs by the time this tricky moves ended). (And mind what happened above its pretty much the best result you can get anytime, rolling 1 dice at a time from a 3 will point heroe and sucessfully resisted the nasty spells twice) generally those heroes end up good with no Will points at a random sap Will right of the bat... The only downfall of this list its pretty much the Troll aint that resistant to Damage at all D6 3 wounds 1 Fate ain´t much a lucky gamble to risk, so the wraiths actually help him greatly to balance the odds. The Barrow Wight its an important tool for the army, he brings the nasty paralize but you can live without it just fine. If the Ringwraith dies then nasty thing happens as Burdhur wont survive much vs big heroes that well. And I did risked alot with the wraith back on that Gil Galad, he was a bit lucky with rolls,but that happened, now Farmer warned me for same cost I can get Witch King same stats... better sacrifice 2 orcs and get 3 might/3 fate making that risky wraith gamble to lure heroes less likely to happen.. :) |
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| Author: | LordoftheBrownRing [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
Fell Light is nearly useless against most good tournament armies. Hero stopper? Nope.....all good heroes have 5+ courage for the most part. Thats rarely gonna fail. Unless you ally in a wraith then the -1 courage and lowering their courage with magic may help. As for the blackshield shaman idk.....his rule is cool and all, but again without a wraith, most good heroes can resist the spell. Sure they may spend might and will, but then youre spending almost 55 points to take that away. Idk...Ive used the blackshield shaman twice. The tremor rule he has is also good so its kind of enticing. Overall, I didnt love him. |
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| Author: | ketara [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
Good point on the Shaman Lordofthebrownring. I suppose he'd be at his most useful after a Ringwraith has already stripped all the will off a hero, and in that scenario, you don't really need to bust his weapons anymore, as the wraith can start transfixing him. |
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| Author: | Galanur [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
Gundabad Blackshield Shaman shatter its situational. Its a good backup to deal with multiple heroes when you got 2 few ringwraiths to deal with them in a turn. For example Involuntarly he does shut down Gimli special ability of the axe wielding :P It can be usefull to take on range targets where the transfix wont do much good (as transfix its ment to stop an hero, while you kill in melee), just by this can be potencially interesting to shut down Legolas bow or Vrasku crossbow, this can be helpfull for example to prevent legolas from 1 shooting a barrow wight. Still its very situational. The tremor normally need the 3 dices to cast it at random, but the effect can be good or bad depending on your 2D6 roll, but its a good way for an evil force to throw down mounted armies and hinder their abilities, this is even good vs monsters unlike the normal monster brutal power attack hurl... |
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| Author: | mr. dude [ Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
You have to decide what you're trying to do with this hero. Do you want to kill him/her/it, or are you just looking for a containment strategy? Easiest way to kill a hero is to face it off against something scarier. Alternatively, cut it down to size with magic (Transfix/Paralyze) or heroic strike your way to victory. Shooting or magical missiles can, if nothing else, dismount a hero; or take off some fate points (but I've rarely seen them do enough to take down a hero). Morgul Blades, Thrydan, Golden King, other such toys, can give you another way of getting rid of heroes. It seems like you're looking for containment strategies. I'll start by saying Spectres probably won't work, everything you need to make them divert a typical big hero (ie lower their Courage 5+ into something that can reliably be moved around all game) would probably be enough to outright kill the hero anyway. You can Compel/Command the hero away from you, though, again, if you've done that enough times to isolate the hero, you may as well charge in for the kill. You can feed it a puny model per turn as a distraction but watch out for heroic combats; one way around this is to ensure your puny model gets killed before the fight phase, leaving the hero stranded and incapable of doing anything in the fight phase. Face the hero off against a tough model, Castellans of Dol Guldur and Shelob are two such models (both with remarkable hero killing capacities if I do say so myself; my Shelob just one-shot ate a Beorn yesterday). Alternatively, divert the hero, separate him from his army. Let me tell you something, however scared you are of your opponent's hero, your opponent is more scared of getting that hero isolated against your army. Pay attention to whatever your opponent is avoiding and shove it in his/her face, use it to your advantage. That's how you deal with heroes; build it into your armies and use it in your games. |
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| Author: | Da Krimson Barun [ Tue May 24, 2016 10:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
How can I kill Beorn with Easterlings? |
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| Author: | mr. dude [ Thu May 26, 2016 1:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
If you can get to him while he's still in man form, all the better. Take some pot shots at him and hopefully whittle a fate point or two. If he's in Bear form, use a faster model to draw him out and isolate him. Do what you can to burn his might, then bring your FV6 model(s) in and heroic strike, surround, and see if you can wound. This is me behaving myself and not saying "Khamul him to death" |
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| Author: | LordoftheBrownRing [ Thu May 26, 2016 3:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
Magic, heroic strikes, trapping him, or feeding him one at a time and dragging him away from your lines with his berserk rule. |
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| Author: | LordoftheBrownRing [ Thu May 26, 2016 3:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
Like he said Khamul is an option. I didn't know if you use him. Maybe on a fell beast but that's still much. Also from using him I can tell you it's gonna be difficult to shoot him so don't rely on it. I've used him probably 6 or 7 times in armies and I'm pretty sure he's never even been hit outside of beer form with archery. |
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| Author: | Valadorn [ Sat May 28, 2016 10:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anti-Good Hero meta |
Nice conversation here. I always like it when we come to discuss about "meta" in our hobby. |
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