"A Gamer in the East" posted a new topic on the TLA forums, and asked if someone would use the old Dain profile, to resemble Dain during the Battle of the Five Armies, or if they would profile him differently.

He strongly believe that he should be profiled differently, and I will copy-paste my answer, in order to get some feedback from you guys as well:

As mentioned, the current profile reflects Dain in his old age, as he over 250 years old.
A great Dwarven fighter, but far from his prime, which would have been during the Battle of Five Armies!

His updated profile should thus reflect this, in my opinion.
At this time, I guess only Glorfindel would have been able to outmatch/match his battle prowess?

The values that could/should be updated are:
* Fight Value
* Strength
* Special Rule; Venerable

His Fight Value should be 6, but when compared to the other heroes in the Durin's Folk list, this is matched by both Durin and the King's Champion. A Fight Value of 7 however would perhaps be too much for a Dwarf, so 6 would seem like the appropriate upgrade, despite the above mentioned fact.

Then there is the issue of his Strength which should be 5, as this should not be outmatched by the King's Champion.. Dain is in his prime during the Battle of Five Armies, and since he should not be Fight 7, then at least he should be Strength 5..

Lastly, one would need to remove his Special Rule; Venerable, as this of course again reflect his old age.

An improved profile, with the points mentioned above, would then be:

Dain Ironfoot, Lord of the Iron Hills
Fight Value: 6
Strength: 5
Defence: 9
Attacks: 3
Wounds: 3
Courage: 7
Might: 3
Will: 3
Fate: 2
Special Rules: Barazantathûl. The Lord of the Iron Hills (same as The King under the Mountain).

His point cost should be 140 (+5 for increase in Fight Value, +5 for increase in Strength, +5 for removal of a negative Special Rule). This puts him at the same cost as a certain King of the High-Elves...

Also there is a question of whether he should have a Special Rule to reflect the fact that he actually slayed Azog in the books. Should he have some sort of re-roll to Wound against Azog, just like Thorin's "A Score to Settle"?
This would take him to about 145 points.

What do you guys think?

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I would go for this

Dain, Lord of the Iron Hills

F 7
S 5
D 8
A 3
Wo 3
C 6

M: 3
W: 3
F: 3

Equiment: Heavy Dwarf Armor, Two-handed Hammer

Burly

Du Bekar!

Hard to reason With: Dain is stubborn and proud. He will only take part in heroic actions called by a Dwarven Hero and will not benefit from spells and abilities from non-Dwarven heroes. (i.e. Gloin's "healing herbs" is ok, Gandalf's "Strenghten will" is not ).
However, such stubborness makes him even more formidable in battle: Dain is fearless and Resistant to magic.


This is Dain at his peak, in the movie (not the book!).

Why Fight 7, S5 and Burly?
Fight is not just about skill. Bolg, Fight 7, is just a powerhouse after all. Dain brute strenght allows him to kill orcs with helmet with a naked headbutt and can swing the hammer with ease, killing almost without effort. Dain acts as a Dwarven Hulk.

Why Def 8?
Dain is not yet king under the mountain. As such, he hasn't found the best equipment the Dwarves ever made. He wears "only" a regular dwarven heavy armour.

Special rules
Du Bekar: "where's thorin? We need him!" The iron hills dwarves are loyal to the king, whose mere presence gives them the will to keep fighting. Also, this is a way to make new Thorin a bit more useful.
unique rule: Dain is stubborn, he does not trust men and elves (expecially elves). But he shows no fear at all, even against all odds.
The resistant to magic rule shows how difficult is to make Dain do something he doesn't want to. (at first, I thought about Steadfast, but that would have been way too much for this kind of hero)

Good point about the Armour, I did not think about that!

It would therefore be logical to decrease his Defence to 8, and as such it would be easier to justify an increase of Fight Value to 7.

I am not too keen on Special Rules in general, and certainly not when there is too many of them..
It does seem like Special Rules are the way to go for the new heroes (read: powercreaps), and I would actually not like Dain to be one of them..

Fate 3 also seems too much, in my opinion, why would you change it from the original?

I see that you of course have drawn inspiration from the movies, which I guess one should, as all the other heroes have been created from that aspect, but I wanted something in more synergy with the old profile (and lore), without creating too much silliness (not that you did such a thing, just explaining my starting point).

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Simple, use the King Thorin profile as base minus the special rules (he base cost would be 105 without the special rules) but replace them with:
- Du Bekar (for reasons mentioned above) (costs 5pts)
- Two handed hammer (5pts)
- Burly (5pts)
- Strength 5 (5pts)
- Fearless (5pts)
- Special Attack: Headbut, Dain can instead of striking normally choose to strike one strength 7 hit on one one model in the fight, if the model that was struck survives the combat they will become 'paralysed' (the have been concussed). (15pts)
= 145 points.

Dain may also take an armoured War Boar for 25 points.
F S D A W C
4 5 5 2 2 4
Special rules:
- Does not flee: if dismounted/Dain dies the Boar will stay and fight.
- Impaler: the boar inflicts 1 strength 5 hit one one model each time it charges into a combat.

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in the original he was old and near the end of his life. This profile is Dain at his peak, and death is still far away.

Peak Dain should definitely have 3 fate. I would also give him the option of the Arkenstone for at least 30-45 points. He was king of Erebor after all. 8 defense works, 5 strength, burly and 2-handed ax do too. F6 is pretty necessary. Something along the lines of that Stubborn rule should be included as well. His boar should have 6D and 3W, but he should definitely not stick around.

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In the lore, Dain never took the arkenstone. It was laid on Thorin's chest.

True, but this is movie Dain. The Arkenstone wasn't as important in the book as it was in the movies. In the book, it was just a really sweet gem. In the movie, it was basically like the Ring of Barahir, it identified the wielder as King. Giving it to Thorin makes sense in the book, but giving it to Dain makes sense in the movies.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
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I must say, I'm not fond of all the Strength 5 and Burly combination profiles being thrown around lately, but I'd confess that's just a personal choice. It just seems like an overpowered combination to me, and there were never any models that strong in the Lord of the Rings sourcebooks.
However, I protest at a Strength 7 hit from his forehead at an enemy. How could it possibly be that his unhelmeted noggin can pack a harder punch than a Dwarven Steel Warhammer? It's a ridiculous game mechanic, and something that should have been left out of the movie in my opinion.
Also (and I don't mean to rain on everything people have recommended thus far!) that War Boar profile is far too powerful. It should be more like an unorthodox, but not excessively tanky, horse. Regarding the Impaler modification: a 30 second google search tells me a Dromedary Camel (strength 4 hit on impact) weighs 300-600 kg. A rhino/Great Beast of Gorgoroth (strength 6 impact) weighs 800-1400 kg. Meanwhile, your proposed Heroic Hog weighs in at most at 360 kg, but gets a stronger impact hit than a camel? That seems off to me. It should get at most a Strength 4 hit.
The Boar shouldn't be Fearless, as that's suggesting it's better combat-trained than the best of warhorses, or even the highly intelligent Wargs. An it shouldn't really have 2 attacks, as that suggests a PIG can fight better than a giant wolf. I know this is fantasy, but can it at least make sense?
Lastly, Fight 7 would make Dain more powerful than King Elessar, or Boromir, the greatest fighter of Man in the Third Age, or even most Elven heroes who have had millenia to train. Just because Bolg gets it, doesn't mean we should make up for one overpowered hero with a massive stat boost for others.
And (yes I know I said lastly, but another reply has been made since i wrote that!) you can't just completely ignore what Tolkien wrote to happen in the books just to boost a hero. That is what happened to the Arkenstone, it was supposed to symbolize the fact that Dain and the Dwarves would not fall prey to the same dragon-sickness as before.

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the fact is that the game is not inspired from the books, but from the movies. Like it or not, the "movieverse" is the one we have to look on if we want to build a profile.

Fight 7
in the lore, Dain is the one who kill azog. he kills Azog by himself, which means that he is in Azog's league. But even discarding the lore and talking about the game verse, Fight is not just skill. The Uruk-hai captains have the same Fight as Eomer or Faramir, who spent years in the battlefield, but they are only a couple months old. A troll has high fight value because is bit, Azog e Bolg have a high fight value because they are skilled AND amazingly strong.
Dain, as portrayed, is closer to Bolg than to Thorin. What Thranduil does with skill and finesse, he does with brute power. We may find it ridicolous, but he can HEADBUTT to death a heavy armored orc. we have to include that display of strenght.

S5, Burly
He clearly is stronger than many other dwarves. He is massive, for a dwarf, and swings a massive hammer with ease, killing orcs without effort. Clearly, he has no disadvantage when using such a heavy hammer.

Ok, I'll grant that Fight 7 is understandable, but I still think that EITHER Strength 5 OR Burly would take the guise of "immense strength".
And the game is based off both the books and movies... otherwise we wouldn't Scouring of the Shire scenarios and profiles, or profiles like Imrahil and Beregond who are mentioned only in the books. It just feels wrong to me to have a rule that goes directly against the fluff.

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I don't think it goes against the book to have him S5 and Burly. Dwalin has that combo, and not too many people complain about that, and he's only about 100 points. Dain not only whipped Azog's butt, and kill tons of orcs 150 some odd years later in the BoFA, but he also kicked a bunch of Easterling tush 70 years after that. The problem would be what to cost him. S5, Burly, 3A and a mount? While also being D8-9 with 3 fate and his boar being D5-6? That would need to cost near 200 at least.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Sorry Draugluin, I wasn't clear. What I meant was it goes directly against the fluff to weave in a Special Rule for Dain that countermands what Tolkien wrote involving the Arkenstone, when no change has been made in that regard even in the movie. The profiles are based off the movies and books, so having a special rule in a profile that goes against one of the important messages he was putting across is what I protest at.

I'm not complaining at Dwalin, Azog or Bolg's use of S5 and Burly, it's just it's becoming "the thing" for a big bad hero to wound most models on 3. Azog and Bolg are twice the size of a dwarf (exaggeration, but not by much) and are bred to kill. Dwalin is immensely strong and and an incredibly talented warrior besides, as written in his Weapon Master rule, and his killing power made him special and unique thus far. It just made him stand out.
Anyway, that's the last I'll say about that. It's just my opinion and you have a right to not agree, but profiles I use won't have that.

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I think that the dismounted version should be around 160 points or around the Strider/Azog line.

As for the pig, he will have high defense (5 or 6) but it has to be slower than a horse. I mean, it's a pig. It should match the pony movement, tops. That movement and the armor should make it go for 10 points.

that being said, I am sure that GW, should it ever made new miniatures and profiles, will give Dain fight 6 to "protect" the elves. I mean, they kept Thorin at F6, despite the fight that he dueled with Azog (try to do something like the movie in the game and Azog will smash Thorin 9 times out of 10). They upgraded Legolas to make him equal to Bolg, but not Thorin.

I think heroes' power level rise in Hobbit shows here. While Burly, S5 and a mount would be perfectly fine for Hobbit, and it would fit in the story too, it's really too much in Lotr context.

In my opinion, removing Mithril Armor and Venerable is enough. Maybe remove his special axe and King Under the Mountain rule, too. Maybe you could add F6 and third fate, but he will do fine without. In fact, with F6 he's about as good as Durin, and I don't think he should.

But if we just remove things from the profile, doesn't that mean he's actually worse fighter in the BoFA, than his old days? Why, yes. That's because dwarves in Middle-earth don't age in the same way as men, but retain their strength and wits until the very end, when they become weak, senile, and then die rather quickly. So, in my opinion, Dain in BoFA should be about as fit physically as in the end of 3rd age. The differences would be mainly his equipment and special rules.

Dwarves get old too. At 250 years, Dain is old even for the standard of a dwarf. They get old, and so do their skill: Galdalf himself was surprised by Dain's skill at the time of his death, which means that ages affects dwarves as well. New Balin, depicted as old, is only S3, when every other dwarf hero is at least S4. That means that the game also considers aging as a factor.

F5 and S4 for a venerable dwarf are ok. Taking new Balin as a standard, they are actually surprising.

F6 is Durin VI's level, but is also Gimli's, Balin's, Thorin's, Dwalin's and the King's Champion's (And even Arwen's, whom never saw a battle outside a painting). That means that such a level is quite common in dwarven heroes.

Problem is, when LOTR SBG came out, F6 was the best. Only Gil-Galad, Glorfindel, Sauron and the Balrog, beings of great power and might were better. Or the Mordor Trolls, just because they are big and strong.
But in the new game, one can be better than that.
Now, taking the movie as a reference, is Dain better than Thorin?
Yes, he is.

"- - - By forty all Dwarves looked much alike in age, until they reached what they regarded as old age, about 240. They then began to age and wrinkle and go white quickly, unless they were going to be long-lived, in which case the process was delayed. Almost the only physical disorder they suffered from (they were singularly immune from diseases such as affected Men, and Halflings) was corpulence. - - - - Otherwise 'old age' lasted not much more than ten years, and from say 40 or a little before to near 240 (two hundred years) the capacity for toil (and for fighting) of most Dwarves was equally great."

This is from Peoples of Middle-earth, and as such, you can of course take it or leave it, not strictly canon. But if we go with it.. Tolkien also writes that some "breeds" of dwarves like Durin's line are known for their longevity, and can (rarely) reach 300 years. I think it's quite clear Durin was going to live longer than 250, as he was still able to fight at an age of 240.

But yes, movies (and the old Lotr profile) seems to portray them as growing gradually old. If you take that in account, raising old profile's F and S (+burly) is a very good way to portray a younger Durin. And you get an Hobbit -power level hero.

Oh, and didn't mean to restrict F6 to Durin, as you pointed out, other Dwarf heroes already have it. I ment the top stat line, that only Durin has (or had). But yeah, that's totally irrelevant really if you aim for Hobbit-level hero stats...

I agree with both arguments regarding the profile, but well written, Dikey.

I have had the exact same thoughts regarding Balin, and came to the same conclusion.

I also agree with your comments regarding the evolution of units/heroes, but that is just how it is, as I guess they need "bigger/better/stronger" heroes.. Not sure if it has unbalanced things too much yet, but that might easily happen if players try to create profile by using "The Hobbit" rather than the old "LotR" when comparing stats..

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The problem is of course stat creep. We can really only use LOTR as a reference for points, not stats.

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F S D A W C M/W/F points: 145
6 4 8 3 3 7 3/3/3
two handed weapon, dwarf heavy armour
armoured boar: 15 points
(counts as a pony with D5 and the impaler rule)
Special rules
Burly, King under the mountain

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