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elven wargear
https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=29887		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Grungehog [ Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:22 am ]
Post subject:  elven wargear
DOes anyone out there fell ticked off that Celeborn, Galadriel, Rumil, Erestor, and Haldir don't have access to horses.
Or for that matter that Elrond and Glorfindel cannot use a shield.

Yet simple captains may have horses and shields indiscriminately
Author:  Sithious [ Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
A general should look at all his army and justify his assets. Why give a horse to someone who should remain behind the lines throwing spells or being protected as they are too valuable to be out and about. And some commanders may be demons on foot, if you watch legolas for any of his film footage you would know beyond a doubt that he should be on foot as he is crazy quick at fighting, on horse he would not be as deadly nor be nimble, he would just get around faster. I think being forced to not mount up every super hero to make them more deadly is a good idea. This makes a person plan out his heroes to fit needs. Good balance within the elven force and plenty of heroes to choose from both mounted or not. Also, from what I can tell, Elves for all the years they live don't acquire much skill or craft, they learn one thing then sit around for 1000 years not learning anything else, safe bet that not all elves are trained or prefer horse mounts. Maybe even some are with Peta and think it is cruel to enslave horses.
Author:  JamesR [ Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
Elven heroes are strong enough as is IMO. They don't need buffs
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
Yea, elves are pretty hard core.
Author:  Guitarheroandy [ Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
I don't actually play SBG very often, so forgive me if this is wrong but I kind of assumed that the higher defence values afforded to some heroes 'take the place of shields' to a certain extent... And yes, it is a good thing to limit some very powerful heroes a little, otherwise the game becomes all about who has the best heroes, not about good tactics combining troops with heroes to get the best out of how the army should fight. This was an issue in an early variant (version 5, I think) of Warhammer Fantasy where heroes all suddenly ramped up from previous versions and it became 'affectionately' known as 'Herohammer' for a while... :roll:
Author:  Hirumith, the Grey Knight [ Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
I abstained from voting, because from a thematic perspective I get why some elves aren't given the option of being mounted (when does Galadriel ever ride out to war?), but from a balance perspective I don't really see why not.

In any case, I think that if you really want to, then as a house rule you should just tack a horse for 10 points onto their equipment list, just like every other hero in the game.
Author:  JamesR [ Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
"Every other hero" is kind of misleading. Less than 50% of heroes can take mounts in SBG.

Personally I don't think that's an oversight
Author:  artlessmammet [ Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
I'm gonna say no.

Most heroes don't have the option for cavalry - in the Kingdoms of Men lists, it's only really Rohan that have heroic cavalry options - aside from that, it's just the terminator heroes of Minas Tirith and the Fiefdoms that can be mounted, really.

Elves have some monstrously powerful heroes even without cavalry options, and with Gil-Galad being errata'd to heavy cavalry, and Elrond's new options with AUJ, elves have pretty solid cavalry options. I'd like it if, say Haldir had a horse option, simply so that one could accompany Galadhrim Knights with a named hero, but really it's not that big a deal.

And after all, outside KoM lists it's a rare hero that has a mount option in wargear.
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
Hirumith, the Grey Knight wrote:
I abstained from voting, because from a thematic perspective I get why some elves aren't given the option of being mounted (when does Galadriel ever ride out to war?), but from a balance perspective I don't really see why not.

In any case, I think that if you really want to, then as a house rule you should just tack a horse for 10 points onto their equipment list, just like every other hero in the game.


It wouldnt break the game to have a larger number of mounted options for heroes. Make it a house rule. Personally, i could careless about mounted heroes. Its mounted magic users that are challenging. All of a sudden gandalf's sorc blast has a max range of 24"! If that isnt enough, now he can race forward 6", cast a spell, the. Retreat back behind his shield wall!
Author:  JamesR [ Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
^for elves it certainly can break the game. Giving the +1 Attack and knockdown to the highest FV heroes in the game isn't something that promotes balance. It makes out more and more unlikely that they ever lose a combat
Author:  LordElrond [ Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
So Gil-Galad has 4 attacks at fv9 on the charge, and then when he's won the combat (as he nearly always will), he has 8 rolls to wound with a +1 and at s4. So op.
Author:  Grungehog [ Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
get a giant spider to web him and he is auto thrown from his mount takes a S3 from being thrown, and cannot uses any of that fancy stuff in combat. the point is a horse doesn't make someone invincible it just adds some tactical versatility and a bit of extra hitting power
Author:  LordElrond [ Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
Also, if you lost a combat with G-G on a horse, would you use a point of might to win, because if you didn't you'd lose the horse?
Author:  Coenus Scaldingus [ Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
And on the larger bases, they are likely to face twice as many incoming attacks. Any 3 attack hero can get 4 attacks on foot was well (spear support), and e.g. the +1 to wound bonus of Gil-galad on up to 8 strikes is no different than a lance would be. Besides, Gil-galad has had te option for a horse since Legions of Middle-earth, not exactly news.

As for the other heroes, it'd be nice if a mounted Haldir could lead Galadhrim knights, as currently only captains (or Legolas...) can. Rúmil fits more with the Court Guard, so he should remain on foot. An optional horse for Celeborn may actually make him a more attractive choice (and look smashing too), it'd fit Galadriel too (the non-combat version). The old Imladris list is basically infantry, so I'd keep the horses for those few heroes who are supposed to have them. Regarding the shields, many Elves have an optionally two-handed blade, so it makes sense not to have a shield. Erestor fights with two knives, Haldir is first and foremost an archer, but Glorfindel may well get a shield. I know it's fantasy, but realistically, anybody with just a single-handed weapon would want a shield in the other hand during a fight.
Author:  Isilduhrr [ Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
There's always someone who does the maths and works out the cost vs benefit of an upgrade or rule.... don't fail me now. I would but.... I'm lazy.
Author:  Hirumith, the Grey Knight [ Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
JamesR wrote:
"Every other hero" is kind of misleading. Less than 50% of heroes can take mounts in SBG.

Personally I don't think that's an oversight

Oh yeah, sorry, I meant "every other hero that has a horse as a wargear option." It's one of those cases of me knowing what I meant, but not being specific enough. Basically, I was just suggesting that the points should be the same as any other hero who can take a mount.

I don't think it was an oversight, either, but I also don't think it was done for balance considerations. I think that for the most part they just give the option of riding a mount to characters who were seen riding one in the movies (or in the case of made-up or book-derived characters, if it makes sense to them at the time).

Some elves being mounted does sound pretty scary, from a rules perspective, but then so does the Balrog, or Sauron, or a Mordor Troll Chieftan, or Azog mounted, for that matter. In my experience, no matter how scarry a good hero looks on paper, they almost always fall to superior numbers of evil models if they're not adequately supported by their own troops, and that's almost doubly true for cavalry heroes because of the likelihood of them leading the attack. If the battle (or priority) swings against you, they're that much more likely to get isolated and pulled down. I dunno, try it and see. After playing with him in several games, if you find that a mounted Gil-Galad is truly that unbeatable, then don't allow it.

jdizzy001 wrote:
Personally, i could careless about mounted heroes. Its mounted magic users that are challenging. All of a sudden gandalf's sorc blast has a max range of 24"! If that isnt enough, now he can race forward 6", cast a spell, the. Retreat back behind his shield wall!

Can't Gandalf (and Saruman) already do that?
Author:  Bronf [ Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
Hirumith, the Grey Knight wrote:
JamesR wrote:
"Every other hero" is kind of misleading. Less than 50% of heroes can take mounts in SBG.

Personally I don't think that's an oversight

Oh yeah, sorry, I meant "every other hero that has a horse as a wargear option." It's one of those cases of me knowing what I meant, but not being specific enough. Basically, I was just suggesting that the points should be the same as any other hero who can take a mount.

I don't think it was an oversight, either, but I also don't think it was done for balance considerations. I think that for the most part they just give the option of riding a mount to characters who were seen riding one in the movies (or in the case of made-up or book-derived characters, if it makes sense to them at the time).

Some elves being mounted does sound pretty scary, from a rules perspective, but then so does the Balrog, or Sauron, or a Mordor Troll Chieftan, or Azog mounted, for that matter. In my experience, no matter how scarry a good hero looks on paper, they almost always fall to superior numbers of evil models if they're not adequately supported by their own troops, and that's almost doubly true for cavalry heroes because of the likelihood of them leading the attack. If the battle (or priority) swings against you, they're that much more likely to get isolated and pulled down. I dunno, try it and see. After playing with him in several games, if you find that a mounted Gil-Galad is truly that unbeatable, then don't allow it.

jdizzy001 wrote:
Personally, i could careless about mounted heroes. Its mounted magic users that are challenging. All of a sudden gandalf's sorc blast has a max range of 24"! If that isnt enough, now he can race forward 6", cast a spell, the. Retreat back behind his shield wall!

Can't Gandalf (and Saruman) already do that?


just to say on the balrog just hurl every guy u fight and just kill every one that way numbers don't matter to a balrog and its funny to see every time
Author:  Dior [ Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
Basing my opinion on the movies...

When your civilian elf is walking to the Grey Havens there were few horses.

When your borderlands military characters patrol they do...

But they seem to walk stealthily otherwise... they live so long.. why would they be in a hurry?

If I was an immortal elf It would take a special kind of kindness and character to animal husband a horse that would be so short lived... it would be an eternal chore. It would be right up there with doing the dishes in my household.
Author:  Erestar [ Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: elven wargear
JamesR wrote:
^for elves it certainly can break the game. Giving the +1 Attack and knockdown to the highest FV heroes in the game isn't something that promotes balance. It makes out more and more unlikely that they ever lose a combat



As the last king of the Noldor in their prime, it doesn't seem that bad considering he was in the War of Wrath and followed after such mighty heroes such as Fingolfin. Yes, Gil Galad would be one tough shell to crack, but it's not like evil doesn't have the numerous tricks, magic and S4 troops to kill every soldier in his army.

I suppose 'good' players have to face monsters all the time, Gil Galad on an armoured horse would probably be one of the few terrifying monsters good can actually field. Let's not forget who actually killed him. Sauron, wearing the ring of power.

Personal want here but I'd love to see a house of Elrond Knight force with Gil Galad up front with his old friend. Now that would be scary. High King plus Natures wrath from his herald.
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