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Knowing your opponent?
https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28617		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Gshaw [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Knowing your opponent?
Okay so i've recently been introduced to the idea of knowing your opponent and I actually really like this idea because the majority of my playing group are predictable, however one of my friends is just a wildcard. He's not unbeatable, just completely random. So my question is how is it best to tackle a situation where you can't know what is going to happen and chances are you're every move has been planned for?
Author:  Gondorian Captain [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
Try to plan for every contingency or play wild yourself.

I have had moments in games where I have realised that my battle plan isn't working, if you recognise this, then change what you're doing.
The plan you change to may not work either but if you were losing anyway then you lose nothing by trying something different.
Author:  Gshaw [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
I have considered the idea of playing in an unpredictable manner, but it's harder than it seems :/
Author:  Sithious [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
Best things I found out was really to know what to do with your force to counter what is happening on the battle field. This will trump knowing every single opponent (which you can't) and will be better than falling for a trap when a predictable opponent changes his tactics.

I make note of what works against what. I make note of what has failed in my force. At that point I can look across a table and see the army and then kind of know what to expect but also what to watch for (like playing aggressive or passive with some heroes).

Also if you have a strategy for your own force that works, the last thing you want is to be altering your strategy based on what you think an opponent will do, that may cause your own strategy to fail. So you want to be observant, do note behavior of your opponent, but also stay focused on what you are trying to do as well. I have quite a winning streak going right now with multiple armies, and not all of it is luck of the dice (though often the dice have saved my but).
Author:  Gshaw [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
Okay well i'm pretty observant (just not great at applying it :P ) So maybe keeping a log of our battles and what goes well etc. would be a worthwhile idea?
Author:  Sithious [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
Don't make it complicated. If you have a army list you are using for a battle you can easily write a note like "troll got shot up before reaching fight" or "Keep my wraith away from a possible heroic move by Aragorn" so that next match you can remember those things and keep your wraith a few inches out of move range of big dogs, and maybe swap a troll for something less target friendly (or decide to help the troll with other options).

little by little, game after game, you will get to know exactly what to look for and how to give your force it's best odds (and remember that dice can still beat odds occasionally). Some Players know all the models so well from so many games that they seam unbeatable, they just know how to use their force to the best advantage they can while limiting the opponents advantage when they can.
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
Depending how much time you want to devote to this, I recommend reading sun tzu's art of war. It will offer good strategic advice (which has saved my rear on occasions). He discusses some hard and fast rules of combat which when you read you realize you knew, but didn't know how to express.
Author:  Valadorn [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
It's a matter of how good you are to truly understand what every movement (every round) means to the battle. Analyzing what kind of force your opponent has, what kind of force you have gives you solid results. You cannot cover every possibility of your enemy's choice (the way he will advance, if he will use terrain, what he will chose to shoot etc) but you can choose to counter the worse possible senario for the rest of the fight. Just make the thing with which one you will earn more in either way the fight passes off. If you have the privilege to know that your opponent is unpredictable, don't try to predict him and play based on that :? :D
Author:  Gshaw [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
Thanks guys this is all great advice :D I'll be sure to keep all this in mind, thanks a million! :)
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
Gshaw please know that if you managed to pull of everything we are saying you'd be a god, you'd never lose a game and would probably be better of commanding actually troops. Nobody can do everything, especially not at once take it one step at a time and don't get bogged down in trying to be the best straight away these things take time. For example read Sun Tzu because you want to or you have time to, not because we told you to most people who play this hobby have never read it. I'm the only one in my group that has and it was for a university course not for SBG.

That said knowing the units your taking really well is always good, but again you usually accrue this knowledge over time seeing how they play for you and whether you like them. Same for your opposition, knowing how to defeat a common opponents units is helpful but don't feel the need to buy all the source books and study them until you can recite all the profiles from memory, that would be madness
Author:  Gshaw [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
ElfGeneral wrote:
Gshaw please know that if you managed to pull of everything we are saying you'd be a god, you'd never lose a game and would probably be better of commanding actually troops. Nobody can do everything, especially not at once take it one step at a time and don't get bogged down in trying to be the best straight away these things take time. For example read Sun Tzu because you want to or you have time to, not because we told you to most people who play this hobby have never read it. I'm the only one in my group that has and it was for a university course not for SBG.

That said knowing the units your taking really well is always good, but again you usually accrue this knowledge over time seeing how they play for you and whether you like them. Same for your opposition, knowing how to defeat a common opponents units is helpful but don't feel the need to buy all the source books and study them until you can recite all the profiles from memory, that would be madness


Helpful advice ElfGeneral, sorry if I came across as slightly reckless I mean even I have those moments where I rush in too quickly but this was not my intention. I will of course take things slowly and as for the sourcebooks our gaming group has a copy of each so there's no cost element there :D Would be kinda cool if someone could recite all the profiles from memory though haha. Sounds like Sun Tzu is a good read though, i'll have to get a hold of a copy if I get time. Thanks for the tips.
Author:  ElfGeneral [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
Gshaw wrote:
ElfGeneral wrote:
Gshaw please know that if you managed to pull of everything we are saying you'd be a god, you'd never lose a game and would probably be better of commanding actually troops. Nobody can do everything, especially not at once take it one step at a time and don't get bogged down in trying to be the best straight away these things take time. For example read Sun Tzu because you want to or you have time to, not because we told you to most people who play this hobby have never read it. I'm the only one in my group that has and it was for a university course not for SBG.

That said knowing the units your taking really well is always good, but again you usually accrue this knowledge over time seeing how they play for you and whether you like them. Same for your opposition, knowing how to defeat a common opponents units is helpful but don't feel the need to buy all the source books and study them until you can recite all the profiles from memory, that would be madness


Helpful advice ElfGeneral, sorry if I came across as slightly reckless I mean even I have those moments where I rush in too quickly but this was not my intention. I will of course take things slowly and as for the sourcebooks our gaming group has a copy of each so there's no cost element there :D Would be kinda cool if someone could recite all the profiles from memory though haha. Sounds like Sun Tzu is a good read though, i'll have to get a hold of a copy if I get time. Thanks for the tips.


I didn't mean to suggest you were reckless at all I was actually sort of having a go at the rest of us. We all have good ideas that you can learn from but we seem to have given them you all of them at the same time, I didn't want you to feel overwhelmed. I know when I joined the hobby I felt like I had to know everything from the start, you don't this game is a learning process, however, if you think you can handle taking everything we've thrown at you in one go feel free to go for it Sun Tzu's only £2.99 on Amazon
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
I read sun tzu before I started playing and did it for personal growth. It is a really good read, buti have a taste for non fiction. It is actually one of the few books i've read more than once.

Reading sun tzu won't make you a super sbg player. In fact, most of the principles in sun tzu aren't applicable in sbg as they can not be used, such as employing spies. However, there are some principles which are very applicable, such as his commentary on attacking and when to do so.
Author:  Gshaw [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
Cheers jdizzy001, sounds like a great read though. Aah I see what you mean now ElfGeneral, and cheers for the location of the book I'll be sure to grab a copy when I have time.
Author:  Valadorn [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
jdizzy001 wrote:
I read sun tzu before I started playing and did it for personal growth. It is a really good read, buti have a taste for non fiction. It is actually one of the few books i've read more than once.

Reading sun tzu won't make you a super sbg player. In fact, most of the principles in sun tzu aren't applicable in sbg as they can not be used, such as employing spies. However, there are some principles which are very applicable, such as his commentary on attacking and when to do so.


That is really interesting! I just ordered that :P
Any other ideas on war themed books? :twisted:
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
I too am a major fan of Sun Tzu and many principles can be applied at various parts of life. From a game perspective, SBG is skirmish-scope and so many of the principles either do not apply or have to be viewed from a different angle. Other war games may involve supply lines, espionage/sabotage, diplomacy, etc. and then you can step up to a higher level.

Likewise when you ask for other suggestions...many good writeups exist for historical battles that you could look at. Generally speaking nothing more recent than perhaps Napoleonic or US Civil War would apply to this game style directly, and battles from the ancient (Greek/Roman) through middle ages would be more likely to feel similar. But just as modern officers still read about classic sword and bow battles from Japan end Europe to improve their management of tanks and armored platoons you can as well. The exposure of historical battles, just like playing lots of SBG games, gives you a larger depth and width of experiences to draw on. You may start to develop a sense for the patterns of battle, rather than looking for specific tactics ( "Ah! this is just like what the 15th Panzer Division faced on the third day of the second battle of El Alamein").

To be honest though, if you don't enjoy reading about and considering historical battles "just for fun" then I wouldn't bother putting too much into it for the game. If you expose yourself to it because you WANT to then I feel it will help but if you're not into that stuff you are much better off putting that time to just playing more games.
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knowing your opponent?
Agreed, just play lots of matches. That is the best you can do to improve your game skill. A few other related things that will help, know your stats. The less you have to consult the rule manual the better. Do you know the wound chart by heart? Commit it to memory (although I also think there are at least 100 different things to which you can devote brain power other than memorizing wound charts and warrior profiles for lotr sbg). Do you know *exactly* what the spells do? How about the new special maneuvers for hand weapons? The more you know, i mean really know, the better player you will be.
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