So who at GW hates bows??

Lord Hurin · **Posted:** Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:02 pm

Hey all, I've been getting kind of miffed lately about how badly bows have been nerfed in the latest rule set. It's probably old news for most but I've just started playing a few games with the Hobbit rules. Obviously Grey Company had been a problem in the past, but that was more down to quantity of bows rather than quality. Elves, Haradrim and crossbows have barely been affected by this but plenty of others have.

I would regularly take 1/3 of my Moria Goblins or Orcs with bows under the old rules. I would always take Dwarf bows. Now with the volley fire rules removed and the added penalty for moving and shooting, I'm finding it very difficult to justify having any bows at all in those forces. I haven't used Gondor yet, but I imagine WoMT bowmen are all but useless now, and Rohirrim must suffer similarly.

Let's not even get into the fact that it extends to throwing weapons, which not only shuts them down for the most part but is also thematically ludicrous.

Anyone have an idea why this shift has happened? Was shooting truly that oppressive before? I don't seem to remember it being, except with pre-warbands GC maybe.

JamesR · **Posted:** Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:19 pm

I agree its an over-reaction to bows. I think the half movement penalty was quite enough for a goblin, but apparently not. Profiles are perhaps more unbalanced then ever by this as models like Iron Guard are quite overpriced with the nerf

theavenger001 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:07 am

Yep, to me the shadow lord, warbands, and warband deployment (getting into combat much quicker lots of the time) already nerfed bows a lot. I don't like the movement penalty.

JamesR · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:33 am

theavenger001 wrote:

Yep, to me the shadow lord, warbands, and warband deployment (getting into combat much quicker lots of the time) already nerfed bows a lot. I don't like the movement penalty.

I know I'm beating the dead horse here but I'm not a fan of Warband deployment. I like Warbands for force organization (I didnt at first), but I still hate that super close deployment. Really detracts from part of what I've always loved about SBG which was a three dimensional wargame. Movement, shooting and CQC were all very important, now the only real importance of movement is determining combats because turn 1 you'll be in CQC. Hence my gaming group dumped warbands deployment

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:58 am

Well true its more advantageous but realistically for players who play mordor and use only cq troops its really un fun to be murdered before you even make it to combat. Maybe keep the move half and shoot rule, but then bows cost a point more.

Im just saying man.....I played one game in a tournament with crossbows....16 to be exact with +2 from Vrasku. He chased me with his goblin town +2 trolls force. I literally just pulled back till he was so dismantled that close combat was me outnumbering him, and this was with a scenario where we each deployed on opposite edges of the board within 18 inches from the edge. The dude never had a chance with the rolls I was getting. It felt kinda lame too. Cool, Im winning woohooo whatever. But thats why they put it in. You can still at the very least move and shoot and get in at least 3 rounds of shooting before the lines clash in any game really.

Personally, I came into the game playing the hobbit after a LONG pause and I think the warband rules are fine. The game gets going quicker this way. I dont want to play mordor often as it is because their shooting is so horrific. Isengard is the only evil force besides harad that has good shooting.

Idk...... I say the warband rules stay, but maybe they change the first 12 inches to 18 for bow forces. I can tell you, even with warband rules my crossbows are almost always used to a good effect.

JamesR · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:32 am

I totally agree that bows can dominate a game but that's historically accurate. Bows were game changers in warfare. And if you play with the proper amount of terrain and bring some archery of your own it shouldn't be a problem. I attribute all this archery "is too good" to poor tactical ability on most players part rather than game mechanics. I'm quite happy to go toe to toe with an elf player, with lots of bows against my Moria Goblins with or without bows myself. And I'll still win. Why? Because I'll out -think or out maneuver them (if they're shooting, if they're not shooting to keep me from out -maneuvering them than they're losing their bow superiority). I like a game that weighs tactical ability above everything else

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:15 am

Yeah I understand all that. I mean, I had 18 crossbow bolts per round and because of the other guys positioning and fury I managed only to kill like 6-10 units the whole game I believe.....

still though...Id rather not play a 100% bow force and just run into death even if it was a thing in history. I mean, historically, if thats what I was fighting Id position myself differently too.....

Valadorn · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:55 am

JamesR wrote:

I like a game that weighs tactical ability above everything else

This is exactly why I am wasting time of my life in this game XD

Hodush · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:32 am

To answer the OP's question: Yes shooting was oppressive before. The main fault was because people did not use terrain in the correct amounts, types and with the right tactics (generally speaking).

To be blunt, I hate terrain because it gets in the way most of the time, but having no terrain is just as bad. I find it to be a fairly self explanatory thing (give yourself enough room to play with as many tactics in mind). A good thing to do (for any wargame/company) would be to have standardised terrain layouts which are guides for getting a good amount of terrain but NOT mandatory. Show some pictures with these types then people can copy it or not, with whatever they have. Terrain has also become a bit more normal to have since the years of FOTR - people have been in the hobby long enough to get their hands on some.

Anyway, I think terrain was the main issue behind pre-warbands games being more bow heavy, but that is exactly how it should have been, and is a good mix of positioning, tactics and terrain management. There are more than enough profiles & special rules to deal with covering open ground quickly (heroic march, drummers) so there was absolutely no need to change the mechanics - half move was perfect and that is what it really should go back to. I would like to see throwing weapons removed from the -1 also. And before anyone thinks Im an elf player, no im moria!

Isilduhrr · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:43 pm

I don't know about bows, but the penalty should definitely not affect Throwing Weapons. You are more accurate and more powerful if you move and throw a weapon.

Lord Hurin · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:41 pm

LordoftheBrownRing wrote:

Im just saying man.....I played one game in a tournament with crossbows....16 to be exact with +2 from Vrasku. He chased me with his goblin town +2 trolls force. I literally just pulled back till he was so dismantled that close combat was me outnumbering him, and this was with a scenario where we each deployed on opposite edges of the board within 18 inches from the edge. The dude never had a chance with the rolls I was getting. It felt kinda lame too.

Crossbows could never move and shoot though, so this new rule doesn't really affect them at all. Likewise, Elven shooting is robust enough to still be powerful despite the -1.

I agree that situations like that one aren't fun; I've been in a couple myself against Grey Company and Elves. Even after the nerfing, those are two of the better armies for bows. I still think the ruling did too much damage to the moderately powered shooting armies and not much to the very powerful ones.

Paboook · **Joined:** Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:41 pm **Posts:** 172

Lord Hurin wrote:

I still think the ruling did too much damage to the moderately powered shooting armies and not much to the very powerful ones.

Exactly. And the crossbows are even better in comparison to bows than before, which is a shame.

I would probably solve the situation in the same manner as in the old "One" rulebook:
1) moving up to half & shooting from bows: without negative modifier
2) moving & using throwing weapons: without negative modifier

SouthernDunedain · **Posted:** Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:44 pm

Paboook wrote:

I would probably solve the situation in the same manner as in the old "One" rulebook:
1) moving up to half & shooting from bows: without negative modifier
2) moving & using throwing weapons: without negative modifier

So basically...leave it as it was previous. Nah I like the new rules.

Encourages skirmishing, which is what the game is all about and has been marketed as for a long as I can remember. Having spoken to the guy who made the call, I can fully understand why they nerfed bowfire. Every game was a long, boring shoot out; no tactics required there. The new rules encourage you to get stuck in and play the game the way it was intended.

cereal_theif · **Posted:** Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:54 pm

Volley fire killing all the horses of your heroes turn 1 when you are 36 inches from your opponent?? Yeah that was a great mechanic *sarcasm*

I am glad volley is gone and the movement modifier actually makes you think about moving and not just doing the old move backwards 3 and shoot trick.

Bows still play an important part of the game and this year most of the top armies have had some bows in their force.

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:47 am

Yeah Ive only played since picking the game up again with the Hobbit rules, and if youre smart, you can kill plenty of ppl shooting. I know this is a skirmish game. It sounds like people want to have mass battle rules for bows and skirmish rules for combat.

Personally, though, Ive always thought games were better that had rules like example for a basic wood elf:

Within 30": 5+ to hit without move
Within 24": 3+ to hit
Within 12": 2+ to hit

etc for each race and model

It wouldnt be hard. It makes sense. Thats how shooting in real life works with everything. They made it simpler and ppl will argue that will take away from the quick hitting nature of the game.....no it wont.

It takes your mind a lot less time than several seconds to process that info....

JamesR · **Posted:** Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:51 am

For myself I want scalability. My gaming group keeps volley fire and old deployment rules because we seldom play small battles. For a game of less than 1200+ per side is just rare (although our world campaign has had some smaller battles) so we like the versatility, volley fire is seldom used even by us but we're all pretty good sports who want to win but also have a good time so it's not a problem

Paboook · **Joined:** Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:41 pm **Posts:** 172

SouthernDunedain wrote:

Paboook wrote:

So basically...leave it as it was previous. Nah I like the new rules.

Encourages skirmishing, which is what the game is all about and has been marketed as for a long as I can remember. Having spoken to the guy who made the call, I can fully understand why they nerfed bowfire. Every game was a long, boring shoot out; no tactics required there. The new rules encourage you to get stuck in and play the game the way it was intended.

I believe it's more complicated. The problem is that good shooters like elves and rangers don't care about the new negative modify as much, while poor archers like orcs and goblins are totally worthless. I am not an advocate of the old volley rule, I am just defending the right of 5+ shooting models for existence

A little bit of statistics. Do you know how many warg riders you need to kill one D3 model with throwing spears when charging? Twelve

I have a bunch of beautiful metal orc archers and plan to paint them. I also plan to field them, use them in one or two games and than leaving them at home to catch dust.

When a game mechanics makes some models useless, it's not OK. The question is: Is there any simple solution?

So who at GW hates bows??

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