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Goblin Drum suggested point cost
https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25046		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Constantine [ Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Goblin Drum suggested point cost
As you might know, the point cost of a Moria Goblin Drum does not correspond to its effectiveness. Especially if you compare it to the, objectively superior, Gundabad Goblin Drum, which costs exactly the same points.

In an effort to try and make the Moria Drum a viable option at lower-points games I was thinking of houseruling its point cost to 80 points.
I will try to avoid citing explicit stats in the post while still providing you with my reasoning (which I believe is obvious to anyone who has read the rules for the two drums).

Each drum has two drummers. The gundabad ones being superior in three characteristics. This corresponds to 6 points difference.

Furthermore the Gundabad drum has three additional benefits over the Moria one. It can be picked up by any other Gundabad goblin, it does not count as a heavy object, and most importantly it can be played while on the move.

Although the first benefit can only be realized with the inclusion of extra Gundabad Goblins, thus making the cost of investing in the Gundabad drum, (supposing one wants to benefit from the aforementioned ability) higher.
Regardless, I do not think that this consideration, is disadvantageous to the Gundabad drum unit.

I believe that an additional reduction of 14 points is justifiable, if we account for these three benefits.

I would like to hear peoples' opinions on such a reduction in point cost, and if they have tried in any way to houserule the Moria Drum.

Thank you for reading this overly long and pedantic post! :gimli:
Author:  whafrog [ Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin Drum suggested point cost
It's hard to quantify the cost of these things, but what you're describing sounds reasonable. You get to field 4 more goblins if you take the older drum with your houserule, do you think that makes up for its disadvantages?
Author:  simmuskhan [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin Drum suggested point cost
Why is the gundabad one the same cost? On the face of it, it just seems better?
Author:  Draugluin [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin Drum suggested point cost
It used to be 20pts cheaper.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin Drum suggested point cost
I completely agree, it's crazy that they're the same price and yet one is so much more effective. I always thought that at the very least the Gundabad one should only affect Gundabads, as you'd probably have less of these warriors and so it's effectiveness is reduced. It annoys me as it's another thing that, if playing competitively, forces you to go for rules rather than fluff. I'd far rather have the normal drum (even from a model point of view) but there's absolutely no good reason to take it in place of the Gundabad one.

However, I haven't been running either in my recent Moria armies. For the same points you can get a shaman (with 5+ Fury as I take Groblog) and 11 goblins. That's a far better option in my opinion because:

The Fury nerfs the drum's courage boost

Your break point is far higher

You have more models and are therefore rolling more dice in a lot of Fights, essentially the same as getting a re-roll.

The re-roll bonus from the drum is completely useless if your opponent rolls a 6 for the Duel as they'll always have a higher Fight value. Thus, a lot of the time you don't even get to make use of the bonus.

The enemy courage modifier is nice though, if you can break them.

Ultimately I'd far rather have the extra goblins than the drum. For me to really consider it (and I mean either one here) it'd have to be about 50 points I reckon.
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin Drum suggested point cost
Before the warband update, the gundabad drum was 30pts cheaper than the standard one.

Quote:
The re-roll bonus from the drum is completely useless if your opponent rolls a 6 for the Duel as they'll always have a higher Fight value. Thus, a lot of the time you don't even get to make use of the bonus.


Thats why I take a shade in my army, nullifies that scenario.

I quite like having the re-rolls. Alright you might always need them but there is always a couple of times when your opponents star hero rolls low and you can beat him with a re-roll.
Author:  Damian [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin Drum suggested point cost
The Gundabad drum can be instantly nullified by moving one of the models away with 'Command' or some similar spell, the Moria drum can't be nullified like that if both drummers are in B2B with the drum. Furthermore, with the Moria drum you can hide one of the crew somewhere where he can't be attacked (as an insurance policy) and just leave the other guy to do the drumming. You can't do that with Gundabad drums as both Drummers must be in B2B with eachother.

I'm also not so sure that moving the drum around is as useful as it was. Anybody with Sorcerous Blast or a Monster is going to Blast/Hurl one of your own goblins straight though the drum if it's anywhere near your lines, so keeping it back, hidden and out of the way may be more prudent. If you bought Gundabads to be spare crew they are then just sitting there doing nothing, babysitting a drum when they could be fighting.
Author:  Constantine [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin Drum suggested point cost
Quote:
It's hard to quantify the cost of these things, but what you're describing sounds reasonable. You get to field 4 more goblins if you take the older drum with your houserule, do you think that makes up for its disadvantages?


I agree it is hard to quantify the cost of these rules. Hmm I am unsure though if 4 Goblins can make up for its disadvantages.


Quote:
Your break point is far higher
You have more models and are therefore rolling more dice in a lot of Fights, essentially the same as getting a re-roll.
The re-roll bonus from the drum is completely useless if your opponent rolls a 6 for the Duel as they'll always have a higher Fight value. Thus, a lot of the time you don't even get to make use of the bonus.


I must agree with SouthernDunedain on this one. Goblins can lack hitting power, especially in low-point games (ex. 500). If the drum was cheaper it could be an option to give your troops much needed hitting power.

Furthermore I also think, (at least theoretically, I have not tried it yet) that a shade is the perfect remedy for their low F.

Damian your argumentation is very interesting and reasonable. But one could just as well hide the Gundabad drummers behind obstacles, thus avoiding magic. The difference in stats alone should account on a difference in cost.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin Drum suggested point cost
The Shade tactic is a good one but I was looking at this from a purely Moria standpoint. Once you start allying in elements from other factions you can always cover up any tactical gaps or weaknesses in your army.

I think in assessing the worth/points cost of either drum, it should be looked at as part of an exclusively Moria army but that's just my preference.

Generally speaking I prefer single faction armies, unless playing part of a themed scenario/game, as it forces you to deal with the weaknesses of that army. It's one of the reasons I'm apprehensive about the Throne of Skulls in a fortnight, with just 'good' and 'evil' 1000 point armies, God only knows what combinations of Spider Queens, named wraiths on fell beasts, shades, Troll Chieftains and Sarumans we'll be seeing!
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin Drum suggested point cost
Actually I think the pts coss should be as follows:

Moria Goblin Drum: 70
Gundabad Blackshield Drum: 80

There is one small advantage that the 1st has however, and that is the longevity of the drum itself without taking blackshields
Author:  Constantine [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin Drum suggested point cost
Hmm Dr Grant I agree with your opinion. Actually the one element I dislike about SBG is its liberal alliances rules. But nevertheless since we are allowed to practically ally bits and pieces from every faction, then I believe that we should judge the two drums as units operating in such a disparate environment.

The bottomline is, that in our assessment of the drums we have to use as a standard the better choice, (I still believe it's the Gundabad) and given its point cost deduct a certain amount.
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