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New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
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Author:  Damian [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
Looking at the tiny rulebook pics in the new WD I managed to read the rules for 2 of the new Brutal Power Attacks. While 'Rend' looks useful, I've been thinking about 'Hurl'

Basically it works a bit like a sorcerous blast with a range of D6+Strength difference between monster and victim, from the base of the monster, in any direction, when the monster wins a fight.

So if you have priority (and have positioned well) you can fight first with your monster and throw his victim down your opponent's line of spear support, they'll take hits but crucially will also be knocked over, so no spear support (assuming the rules for spears haven't changed). If this works on cavalry then you're not going to want them anywhere near a monster.

Making a tight shield/spear formation when there's a monster nearby suddenly gets a bit riskier until the monster is dealt with, so a monster's very presence becomes disruptive to your opponent. A monster with high strength (therefore a long range hurl), fight value, defence and wounds (like The Balrog) becomes very disruptive indeed.

I can see Gwaihir and Treebeard getting a lot more table time.
Author:  SidTheSloth [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
Damian wrote:
...A monster with high strength (therefore a long range hurl), fight value, defence and wounds (like The Balrog) becomes very disruptive indeed.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
ho ho ho!
I think I'm going to like the new rules!
Author:  Bartelomeus [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
Nice! Since the sourcebooks are still valid the point cost remains the same, monsters just got more powerful. Did you also manage to catch what strength hits the models take?
Author:  Damian [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
Yes, but I don't want to quote rules in specific detail, so all I'll say it's similar to sorcerous blast in terms of strength and effect.

Gone are the days of charging one model into a monster to stop it. You will stop it's move, but that one model is getting hurled right back at you and you're basically giving the monster a free Sorcerous Blast in the fight phase.

Blackroot Vale archers, anyone?
Author:  Thecow [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
Oh man, this is gonna suck.
Does this apply to ents and eagles?
Author:  Damian [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
Ents and Eagles are monsters, so yes. Good and Evil both get to play with the big boys. .

How it is going to suck? It's long been the case that things like Cave Trolls are not considered competitive compared to the equivalent points of goblins. Well now they bring new tactical options that goblins just can't do.

It's not exactly beyond the realms of imagination that an Ent could pick up and throw an Orc. What is daft is one sacrificial Orc charging an Ent and stopping it dead in it's tracks.
Author:  Constantine [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
Quote:
How it is going to suck? It's long been the case that things like Cave Trolls are not considered competitive compared to the equivalent points of goblins. Well now they bring new tactical options that goblins just can't do.

It's not exactly beyond the realms of imagination that an Ent could pick up and throw an Orc. What is daft is one sacrificial Orc charging an Ent and stopping it dead in it's tracks.
:-D

Could not agree more. I hope they don't cross the line and make monsters overpowered. I can't imagine what the other two rules are.
On a side note, how can an Eagle hurl its opponent?
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
Pick up and fly off with it and drop it maybe :roll:
Author:  Lord Hurin [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
It IS a more realistic change, to be sure, but it creates some game imbalance. Monsters are far more plentiful and easily accessible for Evil forces. In fact, almost every one has one that they can get without much hassle. Good has Ents and Eagles, which need expensive Heroes to be brought into a warband, or unthemed cheese will dominate. Sure, why wouldn't Bandobras Took lead a force of 3 Ents and an Eagle as a 500 point army?
Author:  Damian [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
Yes, but Good has way more high level fighter heros, particularly those with F6 and above, and they're all getting 4 new heroic actions, so it's far too early to look at one rule and call it unbalanced. Heros will also get access to the new special weapon rules. It was mentioned in the WD battle report where there was a possibility of one of the Dwarfs (with a Hammer) to knock down the Goblin King (a monster) and allow the other Dwarf (with an axe) to make double strikes (and something called 'precision strikes' too IIRC). Monsters are still just as killable as before, they're just going to hurt you more until they die and they'll force you to deal with them.

I am quite curious to see how 'Heroic Accuracy' stacks with Treebeard stooping for a stone!
Author:  Dr Grant [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
I presume the monster gets to 'pick' whether he hurls the victim or inflicts wounds? If he had to roll to wound first then he'd almost certainly kill the sacrificial chap. Perhaps if a monster wins a fight he can decide to either roll to wound or use one of his special attacks?

Gotta say I quite like that as a new rule, when Troke mentioned 'dealing with common anti-monster tactics' I presume he meant that one (single sacrificial charger) which, as Damian said, doesn't make any themed sense. However I was worried that they would totally invalidate the tactic by allowing the monster to somehow make a special attack before combat and then move again or something which would be horrible. This is a very nice compromise: you can still charge the monster and hold hold it up but it might cost you a couple more guys/some ground in the process.

Assuming this is the way Troke's dealt with 'that tactic' I think it's a very nice solution for both sides.
Author:  Lord Hurin [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
I hadn't heard about the new Hero rules, but it does bear mentioning that Bolg is Fv7 (for no particular canonical reason, might I add) and the quality gap between Good and Evil has been closing steadily in the last few years. I really, REALLY hope the game doesn't boil down to Heroes vs Monsters with regular warriors only there to see how many of them your Hero or Troll can kill. Without reading the new book, it seems like this is how it's going. That's fine, of course, for Hobbit scenarios where it's 15 Good Heroes against Evil multitudes. For points value games with LoTR stuff it's questionable though.
Author:  Stormcrow [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
So I feel i have missed something here. Where are these new rules from? Is it to do with the hobbit releases, if so do the changes appy to lotr?
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
In the new WD, there are small pictures of the rulebooks, the OP obviously has super eyes cos i couldnt read it. yes, all new rules will apply to LotR so get ready for treebeard to start tossing orcs around like sticks.
Author:  Stormcrow [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
Thats great,cant wait to try these new tricks.
Author:  tomogui [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
It's interesting to note that power attacks from large-based models such as slams and throws and rends have always been a fundamental element of Warmachine/Hordes (which now presents the single largest challenge to GW in terms of sheer market share).

These attacks add a lot of tactical depth to Warmachine; the game is built around them. Same with Monsterpocalypse (from the same company).

I wonder how conscious GW was of Warmachine when reworking the SBG rules to add these options?
Author:  Draugluin [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
I like them because A. It's more realistic, B. Cinematic (think about the Last March of the Ents or pretty much anytime a troll is shown) and C. Makes my Balrog a bit more worth taking (or maybe EXTREMELY worth taking, depending on the other new stuff).
Author:  Phoenix1986 [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
Good guys will get Beorn in time.



I reckon they made Bolg F7 cause he kills Thorin in the B5A
Author:  Draugluin [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
That's true, and seeing as Beorn knocks his block off with one hit, I can see Beorn as having stats similar to Treebeard.
Author:  Bartelomeus [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Monster rules - Brutal Power Attacks
Phoenix1986 wrote:
I reckon they made Bolg F7 cause he kills Thorin in the B5A


OMG I tried to avoid any spoilerheavy topics since I read The Hobbit a long long time ago and wanted to be surprised....:sad:
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