The One Ring
https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/

Need help with tactics!
https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13859		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  kellie [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Need help with tactics!
Heya, so i played my first few games yesterday with my friend, it was about 550 points we played, my friend had 20 Uruk hi Fighting warriors with Pikes and sheilds, and 24 scouts and Lurts with a Mordor Troll (we didnt know the stats for isernguard troll so we used a mordor one)

I had 16 warriors of minas tirith and 8 Rangers of Gondor as well as a captain with a sheild of minas tirith, Gimli and 6 Knights of Gondor.

(i know both the lists are not proper, but its all we had to play with at the moment hhehe)


We mainly played The mission were you need to end up with the most models in the middle of the board objective around it in a 3" circle.

Basicly i pushed my Main force forward with Gimli at the front as well to contest the middle and i wanted my horse to flank the side, i used archers to fire and move forward 3" at the same time with the middle push. while the horse tryed to kill the Urkhi flank... (they swamped the board compair to me)

We played the mission about 6 times, it was fun but i lost every one, the Urkhi would just destroy my men of minas tirith in combat and really make short work of them, Gilmi held his own getting 9 kills on avrage before falling to mass amounts of attacks were the other warriors had died and urkhi moved on to him. the Knights seamed to do very little and failed to kill much for the points. The archers managed to kill the troll but not much else.

im not really sure what im doing wrong :(
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
My initial guess is that you're probably trying to take on his force 1:1 a lot, but not having been there that's just a guess. That doesn't go well against Uruks. :)

If I remember the scenario your forces come in spread out randomly around the sides. If that's correct, consolodate right away. If you have some troops in an area that they are pretty much out numbered, or alone near the Troll, then consider that they are probably expendable. Use them to delay and harass the enemy. If it's someone with a shield then use the "shielding" rule to try to keep alive one more turn. If your opponenet gives up on these stragglers then you can start advancing them (or charge him instead to slow him down more).

Where you do outnumber your enemy right at deployment consider spending one turn to try to take some of them out, but no more than that.

Remember that your goal has nothing to do with killing enemies. It is simply how many troops are within 6" of the center at the end of the game. So don't waste time fighting when not necessary or shooting early. Rush to the center. If you have good combat oportunities on the race to the middle then take them but don't let them distract you. You're in a better position trying to defend the core with a lot of troops than trying to force your way in if the Uruks are already there.

Your horse have 10" movement so as long as you don't get charged right in the first turn you should be able to quickly bring a couple of those together and use them to either get to the middle first or else circle the board and help where your foot troops are in danger.

If you can get several of your Rangers to the middle then start shooting at any Uruk coming in. Hopefully though your Rangers have Spears because they will probably be most effective supporting your WoMT.

Try not to get distracted by the Troll. Often the game ends within just a couple turns of the forces starting to reach the middle so if you can delay the Troll just a little then he may not even be a central threat. You may not have luck charging him due to Courage Tests but if you can put a single troop in front of him the Troll will probably charge you. Then shield.
Author:  kellie [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Normaly she got to the middle at the same speed as me, meaning it was a big fight in the middle and the horses being always out numberd and dieing on a flank :(
Author:  whafrog [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with tactics!
kellie wrote:
I had 16 warriors of minas tirith and 8 Rangers of Gondor as well as a captain with a sheild of minas tirith, Gimli and 6 Knights of Gondor.


I don't know exactly how you were outfitted, but it seems to me you were about 100 points under your opponent. Not only were you way outnumbered, but you were outclassed. Your troops can't match the Uruks because the Uruks have a better Fight, and higher Strength. Your 6 KoMT can't match 20 Uruks without a captain to get them out of trouble. You had two heroes, but they can't make up for the numbers, class and the Troll.

It's tough when you don't have the models, but you can revise some of it. Your horses, if you intend to keep them, need a hero to make heroic moves (combat if you're in a charge and see an opportunity to keep going; move if you lose priority and have to get away). You might drop the KoMT to 5, and call the remaining model a mounted Captain of MT (tie a piece of yarn around his neck like a scarf to distinguish him). Let Gimli lead the infantry.

Here's a weird thing: against Uruks, it doesn't matter whether your WoMT have shields or not. Uruks have S4, so they need a 5 to wound whether you have def 5 or 6. So if you drop the shields on 16 WoMT you can either get another WoMT and give all your rangers spears, or you can get two more models. Same goes with the KoMT, though a Captain with a shield has Def 7, so it's worth it for him.

Here's a new list with the above in mind, and assuming these are all the models you have:

Gimli, 90 points
Capt of MT, shield, lance, horse: 70 points
KoMT x 5: 65 points
WoMT x 8: 56 points
WoMT, spear x 8: 64 points
RoG, spear x 8: 72 points

417 points, 31 models, 5 might, 8 bows

Sounds like your friend needs to drop at least 10 Uruk hai, or the Troll! Here's a list for her (assuming she wants the Troll, it's so cool :) ) :

Uruk Capt, HA, shield: 60 points (if you don't have a capt model, just pick a warrior and distinguish him in some way)
Mordor Troll, 100 points
Uruk Warrior, shield x 10: 100
Uruk Warrior, pike x 9: 90
Uruk Scouts, bow x 8: 72

422 points, 29 models, 2 might, 8 bows

That Troll is expensive...
Author:  kellie [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
point wise i think we had the same

16 warriors of minas tirith
8 spear & shield
8 shield

8 Gondor Rangers
200 pts

6 Knights
6 shields
86 pts

Captain
shield
55

Gimli
90

431 pts

my friend had

20 Urkhi
10 Pike
10 shield
200

24 scout Urkhi
8 Bow
8 Shield
8 with out any thing
200

Troll
100

Lurts
60

560... Ooops ><

Ah so she was about 100 pts over me. Hmm, even with out the troll i think id still have really strugled the Urkhi just ate my warriors alive due to F4 and S4 it was like evil ><

So it may be best to put the captain on a horse? or should i replace the horse with more warriors of minas tirith? as most of the time i felt so out numberd it was pretty bad, i normaly had to fight 2 v 2 or 1 v 2, 1 v 3. in favour of the Urkhai it got worst as the game went on as my men died and hers didnt :(

i dont mind losing but losing all 6 games in a row was a little dishearting
Author:  kellie [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
I was thinking maybe a little list like this?

Captain of Minas Tirith
Shield
Horse
65 Pts

Captain of Minas Tirith
Shield
55 Pts

Knights of Minas Tirith (5)
5 Shields
70 Pts

Warriors of Minas Tirith (37)
12 Spear & Shield
12 Shield
13 Bows
308 Pts

498 Total


Im still using shields atm in this list as i would feel strange to say they have no shields on the models XD

do feel a little sad that its kinda hard to take some of the major heros like Boromir and aragorn or even gandalf, as they cost so much in points :(
Author:  whafrog [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
kellie wrote:
Ah so she was about 100 pts over me. Hmm, even with out the troll i think id still have really strugled the Urkhi just ate my warriors alive due to F4 and S4 it was like evil


Actually 137 points more (her scouts are 208, and 568 - 431 = 137)

That's ~14 models extra, which is more than half your infantry. You shouldn't feel bad at all. In that kind of scenario your friend would have had to roll really badly for the entire game to lose. Your friend will get a nasty surprise if you balance the forces properly.

Your list looks alright, but two things:

1. RoG are better than WoMT with bows, the difference is significant. Their fight also matches the Uruks, and if you give them spears they can provide backup.

2. Give your mounted captain a lance. You want to increase your chance of killing your opponent if you call a heroic combat.
Author:  whafrog [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
kellie wrote:
do feel a little sad that its kinda hard to take some of the major heros like Boromir and aragorn or even gandalf, as they cost so much in points :(


Actually I think Boromor of Gondor (not the captain one) would be perfect in this scenario. He's only 105 points, and his horn gives him a huge advantage, never mind his 6 might. Just don't let him get peppered with bow fire.
Author:  kellie [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
this is going to sound really silly lol kinda embarased to ask XD

Why would you use Heroic Moves for combat? I know that it lets you move if you kill every thing in combat with the hero to another combat, but the hero cant find in the new combat, would that mean that they can be hit and you cant hit back agenst the new models that they charged?

all i really used my Might for was stuff like winning the fight or inflicting wounds, im still not really sure when to use heroic stuff and how it can effect a battle


Hero is a upgraded Army list i may try to use;

Captain of Minas Tirith
Shield
Horse
Lance
70 Pts

Captain of Minas Tirith
Shield
55 Pts

Knights of Minas Tirith (5)
5 Shields
70 Pts

Warriors of Minas Tirith (24)
12 Spear & Shield
12 Shield
206 Pts

Rangers of Gondor (11)
8 Spears
96 Pts

497 Total
(dont have more then 8? i think models with spears for the rangers of Gondor or i could buy another 3 :( )
Author:  whafrog [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
kellie wrote:
Why would you use Heroic Moves for combat?


Check out beowulf's posts in these threads:
http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13823&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20
http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13813

As someone said (and it might have been beowulf but I can't find the quote), if a mounted unit doesn't charge, he's basically just a very expensive warrior. So you use heroic moves and combat to control how and when your cavalry can charge. As cavalry, you do not want to *be* charged.

Quote:
I know that it lets you move if you kill every thing in combat with the hero to another combat, but the hero cant find in the new combat, would that mean that they can be hit and you cant hit back agenst the new models that they charged?


Not sure what you mean. If you use a heroic combat and kill your enemy in the first fight, you charge a second enemy and are in a fight just like the first. You can definitely hit back against the new models. You might be out of Might by then, but usually you would have some supporting troops with you, and hopefully you have a higher fight than your target. Done at the right moment, this kind of move lets you crumble a flank.

Quote:
all i really used my Might for was stuff like winning the fight or inflicting wounds, im still not really sure when to use heroic stuff and how it can effect a battle


The situations don't always come up. It took at least 10 games for me to get a handle on when to use Might at all, never mind figuring out when it was appropriate for heroic moves and combat.
Author:  kellie [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
hehe i got alot of learning to do it seams when it comes to these games ><, I dont have the rule book at hand right now till tomorrow. but i thought it said that if you use a Heroic combat you arnt alowed to fight if you charge in to some one else... i may have read it wrong tho!

still learning the rules hehe
Author:  General Haar [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Nope, you get to fight just like it's any normal combat.

Believe me, when I started, I glazed over the heroic actions section a dozen times and still didn't get it. And I'm still getting used to the timing of calling them. Believe me, you'll find your timing. And if it didn't work out whenever you made one, hey, that happens, don't get down.

Heroic moves are handy for charging, exploiting, and pressuring an enemy:
Getting the charge with your cavalry or pulling them back to reform and prepare another charge.
Pushing through a hole in your opponent's defenses
Tying up an opponent's hero so he doesn't make a Stand Fast
They also are good to call if you need to reform your own line or shift a formation.

Plenty of uses. You just need to learn when to use them, and that comes with practice.

Heroic combats are good for rolling lines, crushing flanks, and getting past guards (Say, a model protecting a banner). Also handy if your opponent "Feeds" your hero one model to tie them up and prevent them from killing several.

Just read over that section a few more times, as well as some of the discussions here on One-Ring, and you'll get the hang of it in no time (Assuming you practice!)
Author:  The newbie [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
I started playing SBG in Febuary, have mastered the basics and can whittle of stat lines from memory, but the area of the game that I still struggle in is countering heroic moves. :?

As the rulebook says if your new to the game don't feel you have to include the Heroic actions, first just learn how to play and get a feel for how battles tend to flow then once your experienced enough bring in heroic actions. :-D
Author:  MuslimRohirrim [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think Heroic actions are one of most interesting sections in the game in that it's one of the real time skills, it cannot be prepared ahead except to a certain limit. You know ahead that your Hero will perform a Heroic Action whenever the opportunity so and so... but you're not sure when this opportunity will come, so you need to be prepared for it at any time in the game cause chance only prefers the prepared mind. It may come and you miss it either because you're not concentrating enough or you couldn't keep the needed consistency. In my opinion it's what differentiates the true Generals from others and that only comes with time and practice.

So I think you should not abandon playingt them (or any advanced rules in the book) just because they are pointed out as advanced rules, but you should keep trying to use them every now and then. Many may fail and some will succeed, but time after another you'll be able to develop your own sense of when and how you should be using them in a way that may only fit your style and army and no other style or army. It is a field sense and only usage in field will sharepen it.

Hope I helped clear and not confuse things as I myself am still struggling on it.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/