That is why I advocate using floi to turn off tom's ability during the move phase, then blast him with a sorc blast. Again, during the move phase. That way you cancel out the need to use stats in the first place. Isuppose you could always blast him with dragon's fire too. Instant melt. Or swallow him with a cave drake. There are plenty of ways to kill a mini without the need for stats.

I must amend my early comment regarding tom failing his swim check. Tom cant fail a swim check. As he is not wearing armor he gains a +1 on his swim check and can not roll a 1.

I'm resurrecting this thread because I'm playing Tom and Goldberry in a game this weekend against Floi, and I need to know if his rule can legitimately be turned off. I say no just because then he would lose every single ability, he wouldn't have an actual wound's value, so, just how would that work?

I know it was answered 2 years ago, I just want to make sure that nobody's changed their minds in the last 2 years.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Yes, floi can turn off his rule. Floi specifically targets special rules without exception

His rule can be turned off by Floi. The only rules Floi can't stop are those related to special equipment.

I once thought that given that, without the rule in play, Tom can be charged, it is necessary for the character to have stats. So we ruled by analogy with Gulhavar; if its rule is turned off, Gulhavar is considered having 1 attack instead of none because, in SBG, there's no such thing as 0 (excluding horses and ponies) so every unknown stat is treated as being of the least possibile value (1).

I know, there are many objection one could move to this ruling, however literally every possible solution is objectionable since Tom and Goldberry are character made specifically for narrative games, not competitive ones. There's a reason Nova's Rules forbids those two.

You could argue that having Floi affect Tom is against the spirit of the Tom's own rule but that would have to be agreed between you and your opponent before hand.

I do, however, disagree with what Dikey said about Tom being forced to have stats. He and Gulhavar are not similar cases as Gulhavar's stats are tied to the negated rule, hence they can be altered. Tom on the other hand has stats that are independent of the negated rule, or any rule at all, so they can't be altered by Floi. What this means is that Tom doesn't have dice to role in a fight and without the rule he will lose automatically and moved back but is otherwise imposable to effect. No wounding, no throwing, nothing. Because you need stats from both models to do those thing and you can't get a reading for Tom's. Taking away his rule lets you're opponent interact with him but they still can't kill him by conventional means.

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"Draw your sword with a heavy heart, but swing it with a heavy hand"

Yep, I'm with Wan Shi Tong. Floi can take off Tom's rules, you can cast spells on him and such, but there's still no mechanism to wound him

Problem is, Tom being freely usable is against the spirit of Tom Bombadil himself.

I know my solution is perfect but none is. As I said already, Bombadil was not made to be played in competitive games. As a model, is made to be untouchable. Floi is just another example of "if is not banned is allowed".
We can imagine something like Floi yelling to to hit him in the jambag. That should hurt.

I'm actually in the process of lobbying to my gaming group that he should be perfectly usable in tourneys, so I guess I'm the wrong person to be reading that post...

I would make a case that Tom is not meant of just scenarios but that his alterations in the warbands edition make him playable in any game. I also think it was intended for him to be used in tournaments too. I think Tom is a pretty solid parallel to they way in which the noob tube is described in this extra credits episode https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w and that he should be relied on as a basic counter to all those new high class heroes that came out with the hobbit until player can find other ways to deal with them.

That aside though. Dikey, I think the intention behind your interpreting of the Floi v. Tom question is based on your desire to make Tom balanced by making him removable from the game. Basically if Tom meets Floi Tom is guaranteed to die. Thus making him to risky for anyone to very use competitively. The risk vs. rewound would keep him out of games and no ban needed. But I think your looking at him as thing to be destroyed is the mistake to the spirit of the character. They way Tom's rules are written present him as a force of nature to be avoided rather than confronted which is in keeping with his character in the books. Stretching the interpretation of another models FAQ to make it fit Tom is unsound from a technically standpoint too.

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"Draw your sword with a heavy heart, but swing it with a heavy hand"

The problem with comparing him to Gulavhar is that Tom's rules basically make the ?s infinite. Gulavhar has a very specific max number of attacks, but Tom doesn't. It could be argued that all of his ?s should be treated as 10s rather than ones. The only thing that makes sense to me would be for him to basically become a part of the terrain. Treating him just as a tree when his rule is gone not only fits with his lore but also makes it fair for both sides. So I'm thinking that Floi can take him out of the fight completely until he runs out of might, but Tom can't be killed while affected by Floi.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

the DCHL Guys banned him from Nova, and I've heard others do the same.



that's the idea. Floi, on the other hand, could be played only in a Durin's Folk list or Good army anyway so the the reward/risk ratio is still good.
And about the spirit of character, Tom is one who is not bothered by whatever happens five inches outside his land. Clearly, is nearly omnipotent but his biggest weakness is his "apathy".
To be tournament material, I think he must be toned down.
For example, a rule named "Tom's Land" which limits his movements and/or magic range. That would fit the character perfecty.



that could work.

So you admit that your interpretation is based not on the rules as written but on your preconceived notion that Tom needs to be nerfed and thus who have stretched existing but unrelated FAQ rulings to support that notion right Dikey?

Look now whether to is fit for general use is a issue to be argued on another topic. What we have to hand is a question of what Floi's Loremaster will do to Tom and how to we interpret his stat line. As I have said my bit on that and I will stand by it. All I wanted to do was draw Dikey out into explaining why he interpreted the outcome in the way he did.

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"Draw your sword with a heavy heart, but swing it with a heavy hand"

If you nerf Tom because of Lore reasons, you wouldn't be allowed to take Azog and Saruman in the same army. We'd also need to remove Denethor's special rule if he was fielded with Boromir. There are so many lore problems with the vast majority of alliance options, not to mention the fact that you can have the Shire fight Haradrim, that complaining about just Tom is incredibly minor.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

My argument is always that he doesn't need to be nerfed because, if you don't know how to use him, you will lose. He is that difficult to use effectively. If you pull it off, props to you. Not even for thematic reasons should he be nerfed because it's not necessary. He's incredibly powerful in the right hands, and ONLY in the right hands

that's the reasoning:
Question 1:Can Floi negate Tom Bombadil's rule? Yes.
Question 2:Can Tom be charged/shot? Yes.
Problem: how do we solve the combat/shooting?
Research for something similar: Is there any other model who has a statline Floi can alter and if yes, what happens?
Answer: there is, and is stats are treated as being of minimum value.
Solution: Treat Tom under Floi effect has having all stats of the least possibile value.

Lore wise, this is incredibly flawed. But Lore-wise we wouldn't even consider Tom leaving his land so we do what most player do and just don't care. If rules allows to put Alfrid,Boromor and Gil-Galad together, then the lore (that I still love and my reason for choosing LOTR over other stuff) doesn't matter anymore.
We cannot say "lore-wise" and deny the lore at the same time. Either we consider the sources or we don't. If we choose to play Tom outside of his land, than we are completely ignoring Tolkien and so Tom has be treated as anyone else. If the counter-argument is "Tom is allpowerful in tolkien's lore" than the reply is "Tom would not lift a finger outside his house in Tolkien.".

Rule wise, is a stretch, I admit that. But is the only stretch that actually allows a solution.
A flawed solution too, because 90% of time the opponent will not have Floi in his army list.
Now, people may like or not. I have never been to official tournaments and apparently I won't be able to go in the foreseeable future, so I'm not advocating in my interest or anything. The question was: how to deal with Tom, and that is my solution, a simply house rule. In my group, we decided to use it since we find out that is also a reasonable balacing.
Of course, the easiest way would be to add a paragraph to the rule saying: "should this rule be negated...". That would solve any possible problem.

Edit: about lore and nerfing (hope I'm using this word right). We have 0-points Gollum (another banned mini) who is bound to the ringbearear. So, as far as the rules go, there would be nothing new in bounding Tom to his land (or just put his old rule back)

Edit2: Considering the lore. If we choose to follow Galdor's idea of Tom's Powers being granted by the land itself, we could say that outside of his domain Tom is vulnerable.
I know nobody knows really anything about Tom, that character is a mistery which will never be solved until someone find a lost letter where Tolkien himself explains his (its?) nature.

This is all you need to know about Bombadil the Accursed: http://km-515.livejournal.com/1042.html

That article.is so absurdly inaccurate that it isn't even worth mentioning.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

I like your rules logic, problem/solution approach. but as already pointed out, there is one major flaw, gulavhar possess a lowest common denominator thus when his rules are shut off we can default to his lowest value. Tom however, is an undefined variable. Gulavhar is clearly defined, he has a defined, limited range whereas Tom does not. Tom has no range, therefore his ? Value could just as likely be 10 as it is 1. We cant arbitrarily assign a value to Tom no matter how sound the logic.

I agree, but what a speculation. Very fascinating.