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Compel assisted charges?
https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=32688		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Ring_of_Gyges [ Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:00 am ]
Post subject:  Compel assisted charges?
I've been rereading the Hobbit rulebook and I'm suddenly unsure about something I had assumed was fine.

Suppose the Witch King is on horseback and 14" away from a Rider of Rohan. Can the Witch King move up 2", compel the Rider to close to 7" away, and then complete his move into base contact with the Rider of Rohan?

I had assumed so, but the charging rules talk about declaring a charge and then measuring the distance to see if you're in range. Can you charge if you're only going to be in range if your spell goes off?

For added complication, what if the target causes terror (i.e. Elrond rather than a Rider of Rohan). When does the Witch King test terror? When he declares the charge or when he is found to actually be in range?
Author:  Men are weak [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compel assisted charges?
Regarding the compel / charge, it certainly appears to me that you can do as you describe. You could definitely cast Compel, and then, if successful, charge, so it seems to be semantics to fiddle over details about when, during the move, the spell is cast.

Now the terror does complicate matters though. Since you can cast the spell before you move, or during your move, I think you can choose whether to take the courage test before casting the spell or after. I can't see a benefit to taking the test after casting, if you definitely wish to be the charger.

If however, your only objective is to end up in a fight (and you don't care if you're the charger or the model being charged), then I think you have two options: (1) Move (without charging) and then compel the enemy to charge you (hence no courage test required); or (2) Take the courage test, and then cast the Compel, as per your initial post. But I'd think you'd need to decide that prior to any movement, courage tests, or casting as the rules pretty clearly state that if you wish to charge, you must pass the courage test, and failing the test means you do not move at all. In that second test, you'd definitely want to do it before attempting to cast Compel.
Author:  Wan Shi Tong [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compel assisted charges?
I am inclined to agree with Men are weak's interpretation of the rules. The intention is to charge a model which causes terror and I believe that it is the intent which forces a test to be taken at the beginning of the move.
Author:  Ring_of_Gyges [ Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compel assisted charges?
Testing terror before you move makes me think that the designation of a move as a charge has to happen before the model moves at all.

For example you can't (I think) move up to the edge of a terrifying model's control zone and then test to move the final inch. You have to test before you move at all. You can't (in that example) have a 5" normal move followed by a 1" charge, you have to have a 6" charge.

If that is the case then the argument would be you can't move, cast, then charge because the initial movement can't be a charge (since #1 you're out of range and #2 you don't know if the compel will work) and you can't make a move that is partially a charge and partially a normal move.
Author:  Ring_of_Gyges [ Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compel assisted charges?
Men are weak wrote:
You could definitely cast Compel, and then, if successful, charge, so it seems to be semantics to fiddle over details about when, during the move, the spell is cast.
Not in the example given, the Witch-King is 14" away from the Rider and can only cast 12".
Author:  Wan Shi Tong [ Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compel assisted charges?
Well the rules for charging only state that you need line of sight and enough movement to get into base contact, with the measurements being made as normal, to make a charge. Moving a model with compel half way through doesn't violate that wording exactly and making a courage test at the start of a move still fits in. I see how you could interpret it to exclude using this compel loophole, and that's what it is. But I don't know if its got definitive argument it needs when going up against the conventional interpretation.
Author:  Men are weak [ Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compel assisted charges?
Wan Shi Tong wrote:
Well the rules for charging only state that you need line of sight and enough movement to get into base contact, with the measurements being made as normal, to make a charge. Moving a model with compel half way through doesn't violate that wording exactly and making a courage test at the start of a move still fits in. I see how you could interpret it to exclude using this compel loophole, and that's what it is. But I don't know if its got definitive argument it needs when going up against the conventional interpretation.


But the rules for charging an enemy with terror state that you test before moving, and if you fail, you do not move at all.

I hadn't taken the casting range of compel into consideration, so that, in my opinion does change things a bit. After thinking this through some more, I've bounced around on opinions.

I think there's an argument that can be made for the fact that you can declare your intent, make the courage test, move part way, then cast Compel. But I'd tend to think you'd have to commit the Will upon the declaration, and spend it without even knowing if you'll pass the courage test. That *feels* appropriate to me, but I'm honestly not really sure it flies.

A purer interpretation of the rules, at least to me, just leads me to believe that you just can't perform a Compel assisted charge. But this would be a good question for GW.
Author:  Hodush [ Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Compel assisted charges?
I don't have the rulebook but I'm pretty sure it does not say you have to test before you move in the exact way you are thinking - I may be wrong so you can quote the rulebook if you like - I will check when i get home.

The WK can move to within range and then cast - it is all during the move phase which is not completed so that is fine.
Another example of this in the game is if you are using a throwing weapon - you charge within 1" and then throw - which is why you also have to get the -1 to hit. You then complete the move.
So regardless of it being a weapon or magic, its ok to break up moving the model into 2 phases - as long as you don't move another model of your own.

My understanding of the Terror rule is that you declare who you are charging, you move up your full move to 1" away and then take the test. If you fail, the move is over. If you pass, you enter the control zone and charge.

You never know if you will pass the courage test and there is no way around that. That's what Will is for and paying the cost for more courage in your troop choice :)

It causes disruption to your battle line if you fail 1" away but far less disruption if you were to fail from 5" away, so i think this is why we test from 1" away.
Author:  Wan Shi Tong [ Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compel assisted charges?
Yeah you're remembering it wrong Hodush. Page 83 of the main rulebook has the terror rule as; "should a model wish to Charge" a model with this rule "it must take a Courage test before it moves".

It seems to me that the fundamental question of this matter comes down to how you interpret this passage from page 22. "Making a Charge is a simple matter - measure the distance as you would for any other move and, if you have enough move to reach the target, then move your model into base contact with the target". If this is read to mean that you must have enough movement at the beginning of your move to reach the target you wish to charge then it is not possible to compel a target that is beyond that into the movement range to be charged. If it is read to mean that you move normally and so long as you have enough movement to make it into base contact with a target, you may use compel to charge a model that was beyond your original range of movement. Personally, I think I will stand in the second camp for the moment and argue that this line means you can elect charge something that is outside your movement range so long as you don't expend more then your own total movement value to reach it. Like how cavalry can move 10'in and dismount at the front of their mounts base to be in base contact with something that was 11'in away from where the rider started. They might both be loopholes but neither is an illegal move as such.
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