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SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
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Author:  ScarpeIron [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
I'm wondering if Hero's count toward the 33% bow limit offered in LoME. It states "Warriors" only in the 33% limit. So, does that mean out of ...47 warriors: 16 (15.5) can be archers; but adding a Hero(s) with a bow will take that over the "warrior limit." Is this a loophole or is it legal?

Asking cause I faced an army that had the "warrior" limit of 33% but my opponent also fielded 2 captains and a hero armed with bows which brought the total of bows to 19. (15.5 rounded up to 16+3=19)

Thanks in advance -Scarpe
Author:  Ares B [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
Your opponent was right. Only warriors are counted to the bow limit, not heroes.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
I was absolutely positive that heroes do count towards the bow limit.
Author:  BlackMist [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
Quote:
So, does that mean out of ...47 warriors: 16 (15.5) can be archers; but adding a Hero(s) with a bow will take that over the "warrior limit." Is this a loophole or is it legal?

With 47 warriors, you can have 15 bows, not 16. It's 1/3 of your Warrior models.
Author:  Ares B [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
I was absolutely positive that heroes do count towards the bow limit.


LoME says "you always have a bow limit of one third of the Warrior models in your army." Not total number of models.

Of course rules are as agreed between the players, with a die as the ultimate arbiter, but to me it's clear enough.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
Ah, I just checked my copy, however, shouldn't you take everything in that book with a pinch of salt.
Author:  whafrog [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Ah, I just checked my copy, however, shouldn't you take everything in that book with a pinch of salt.


Er...the only thing out of date about Legions is some point costs, and possibly the exact makeup of some army lists. The alliance, bow limit, model count and other rules aren't found anywhere else, so they are considered accurate.

Heroes don't count towards the bow limit, only warriors.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
Why wouldn't a hero as they are literally warriors though?
Author:  whafrog [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
When GW uses the term "Warrior", as it's printed in LoME, they mean "non-Heroes". If they had used the term "warrior" it would have been everyone including heroes.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
Thankyyou for the clarification.
Author:  gaarew [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
whafrog wrote:
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Ah, I just checked my copy, however, shouldn't you take everything in that book with a pinch of salt.


Er...the only thing out of date about Legions is some point costs, and possibly the exact makeup of some army lists. The alliance, bow limit, model count and other rules aren't found anywhere else, so they are considered accurate.

Heroes don't count towards the bow limit, only warriors.



Yeah, but the bow limit is defined as 1/3 and 33% on the same page... :P
Author:  ScarpeIron [ Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
and remembe: page 125, in the back of the LoME (in the FaQ); it clear states that sourcebooks trumps the LoME...course thats the abridge version of the text in the book :rofl: And as always, in friendly games ...its to be friendly. Agree, roll off, whatever and move on to the fun of slaughtering each others figurines. 8)

:puppy: Scarpe
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
There are some issues with some profile options and costs but for the most part LoME is a very good book and brought theme and playability to the chaos of "good vs. evil" army lists. For the purpose of a game, 1/3 and 33% should really be considered the same but it does seem to be a point that is brought up a bit. And any profile/point differences between LoME and the sourcebooks are pretty minor when you count up the number of individual models they had to account for on all the lists (while tweaking some wargear options for theme purposes). There are a couple oversights (no Spirit-type models in the Necromancer's list) and silly choices (like Vrasku on the Scouts lists while Crossbow Uruks are on the Warriors list) and a few point probs and typos, but I'm sure it's all less than 1/3, or even 33%, of the total work in the book. :rofl:
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
Just a note on Dol Guldor (which is unlikely to exceed the bow limit), there are spirits in the list; Castellans, and you can ally in Spectres. In any case, I don't think you should interepret 'Necromancer' literally.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Just a note on Dol Guldor (which is unlikely to exceed the bow limit), there are spirits in the list; Castellans, and you can ally in Spectres. In any case, I don't think you should interepret 'Necromancer' literally.


I know that everyone and their grandmother seems to use Necormancer / Necromancy as a generic "evil wizard" term, but as Tolkien does in fact have a number of undead in his tales and his word selection is almost never done haphazardly I would be comfortable that he did in fact intend it to mean the evil force that dwelt in Dol Guldur was summoning and controlling spirits of the dead. In game terms the Specters are a nice addition and I have a Company's worth (more than I'd use in SBG but only a beginning for WotR). But in SBG I have rarely seen need to play more than a couple. So one or two mixed in among the forces doesn't "theme" things too much. Castellans are only marginally effective in SBG due to their high cost and limited role, so they don't bring much flavor with them either. A few nice size groups of Ghosts with a Shade or two, some Spirits and a minimal presence of Castellans, mixed in with hordes of Orcs and Wargs and a nice collection of Giant Spiders is often my goal. Throw in the Spider Queen, the Necromancer and/or a Nazgul and you're rocking Mirkwood as it I think it should be. :D
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
The only undead mentioned in LOTR are the Nazgul & Barrow-wights.
Author:  whafrog [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
You're forgetting those cursed by Isildur. And presumably if Aragorn knew the risk of the Morgul blade (that Frodo would be turned into a lesser wraith), it must have happened before.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
Yes there's the Dead of Dunharrow, but they're noty from Dol Gulsor, also the lesser wraith are from Angmar not Dol Guldor so the Witch-king is closer to your interpretation of he Necromancer rather than Sauron. If TOlkein's werewolves & vampire aren't typical werewolves & vampires, I don't think his Necromancer would be either. Though Beowul03809, if that's your interpetation go for it, WOTR why not make up a Dol Guldor list including the Necromancer, Khamul, the Shadow Lord, The Dwimmerlaik, the Undying, the Dark Marshal, the Mouth of Sauron, Mordor Orcs, Mordor Trolls, Mordor Troll Cheiftains, Siege Bows, Catapults, Wild Wargs, Giant Spiders, Spider Queen, Spectres, Ghosts, Werewolves & Shades if your oponent lets you, and in SBG use profiles for Army of the Dead for your Ghosts and stick spectres, and shades in your Dol Guldor list.
The allying thing I don't like in SBG is that you can't create a 3 way alliance of Minas Morgul, Isengard Raiders & Goblns.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SBG LoME: Bow Limit and Heros....
There were also the Corpse Candles of the Dead Marshes (GW gave us the Dead Marsh Specters as they are more attractive than floating lights), and Tolkien does make numerous references to ghosts and phantoms. I don't have my books with me at work (and would probably get more than a few questions if I started thumbing thru them anyway) so I did a quick check on tolkiengateway.net and found that there are citations in the books about Sauron and Saruman creating phantoms, and references to First Age evil spirits including ghosts and phantoms.

There is no direct references to spirits in Dol Guldur, but there's also no direct references to a LOT of things GW has given us (and sometimes thematic counters against what GW gives us).

Regarding the custom WotR list, BattleHost, SBG LoME style army, etc. I have actually worked up some things that I like and my local group would allow for creative play, but I prefer to keep everything within the structure of the official rules and supplements. It's more fair for everyone, eliminates questions and has portability to any other place you may wish to play from other stores to official tournaments. For myself I'd rather try to find creative ways to work within the scope of the rules than house rule something that I can't use outside a small core of people.
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