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Are SBG Hero's to Expensive ?
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Author:  Raggbur [ Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Are SBG Hero's to Expensive ?
Hi,

When I was re-writing my army list (I just bought my first ringwraiths, I didn't liked them before I red the Rotk rulebook) a couple of days ago,
I saw that I could get 20 well-armed orcs in place of a Khamul!
I tried a few games on a 28cm square bord (so he was always able to use his magic) an he never survived!

Another example: should Gothmog survive against 17 Womt with shields ?
The answer:probebly not

SO, Are SBG hero's to Expensive ?
Author:  hithero [ Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
You can't judge a heroes worth purely on how many Warriors you can get in his place, scenarios, armies and the game is much more than that. Besides, you must have played the battle wrong with Khamul against orcs - did you actually manage to charge with C1 orcs against him?
Author:  Lord Hurin [ Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
The SBG is a numbers game, for the most part. 1 against 20 will almost never win, doesn't matter who the 1 is and who the 20 are. A balanced force with a couple of decent Heroes backed up by mostly basic troops with a few elites mixed in is the way to go.

Add Khamul and those Orcs together with an Orc Captain and take it against another 300 point list. It will be far less one-sided.
Author:  CreatureFear [ Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
^ What they said,
With support a hero can easily chop through large portions of an enemy's line.
All alone against their own weight in warriors? Not really - but that's not what they're meant for.
Author:  Highlordell [ Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
As has already been said, SBG is all about numbers, thats not to say that numbers always win, but generally it has a large advantage. This is because SBG is largely (don't kill me please) a game of sixes. And the more troops you can get in the more dice you will roll and therefore you will roll more 6's and achieve greater amounts of combats won and wounds inflicted.
Author:  Raggbur [ Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Are SBG Hero's to Expensive ?
Yes, you're all right :( . I just don't get that a single human like Aragorn cost 220points (he just a good warrior and leader, like thousands before him)... But its true, leaders and heroes are ment for leading troops, not for fighting

@Hithero: you're right (again), there were just a few who were able to charge him. I mostly killed him with archers, luck and the fact he just got 12 Will points for his magic
(against 20 => he just killed 6 of them with magic).

Thanks guys, I will keep him in my army list (I had a chat with someone at my game store today -email- and he told that Khamul was one of the best Ringwraith tougether with the Dark Marshall), and he will be a fun to paint.

Raggbur
Author:  BlackMist [ Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
The SBG is a numbers game, for the most part.

And I won the doubles GT (700pts lists) with good army containing 6 models in 2009... (and this year's winners had 7...). Competitive LotR is a tactics game and it doesn't matter how many models you really have - most very good players I know (ie. usually seen in top 10 at the GT) usually spend around 1/3 to 1/2 of their points on heroes and then fill the rest with basic troops - warriors are there to stop enemy warriors from overwhelming you, the game is usually won by heroes.
Author:  Noddwyr [ Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mind sharing your army list?
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Though I don't think I'd usually go as low as 6 or 7 models for those points, I agree that most of my lists are in the range of 1/3 - 1/2 of the points on Heroes. If I'm including unnammed Heroes (Captain, etc.) with my named Heroes this may drift closer to 1/2. If I'm just using named Heroes this percentage will float more between the range based on list, theme and purpose.
Author:  BlackMist [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Noddwyr wrote:
Mind sharing your army list?

2009 winners: mine: Aragorn in Armour on Horse, Twins on Horses. Teammate's: Gandalf, Gimli, Legolas.
2010 winners: Aragorn in Armour on horse, Twins on Horses with Boromir CotWT horse/Lance, Faramir horse/lance, Beregond, KoMT with banner. (funnily enough 2nd place this year (us) had Aragorn/Twins list too, but with allied 23 rangers and 6 RotN from grey company).

The game is not only about numbers, even though they do play a big part if your army is designed in such a way. Everything can be beaten if you know what you're doing.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Do you recall what the scenarios were (and did you know the scenario selection in advance during army planning)? Those highly-mobile, heavy-hitting Hero lists would be awesome for some scenarios (Contest of Champions, Kill a King, Size the Prize, Reconnoitre), but would be very challenged in others (Domination, Ill Met By Moonlight, Take and Hold).

I congratulate you though on doing so well with the lists. Obviously good teamwork and practice are more key to your success with these than the list itself. In many hands, against an equal point value of well rounded forces, those lists would be very hard to play.
Author:  spuds4ever [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yeah, don't consider heroes "1 man armies". They are best used as advantages to give to your troops like being able to keep your troops in line and able to give your troops a move out of line. Most people don't see this but I think they are simply things to give your troops various advantages. They are also good at chopping through enemies but they will rarely kill their points' worth single-handedly.
Author:  BlackMist [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Beowulf03809 wrote:
Do you recall what the scenarios were (and did you know the scenario selection in advance during army planning)? Those highly-mobile, heavy-hitting Hero lists would be awesome for some scenarios (Contest of Champions, Kill a King, Size the Prize, Reconnoitre), but would be very challenged in others (Domination, Ill Met By Moonlight, Take and Hold).

Doubles GT doesn't use LoME scenarios, they have their own. You can find this year's ones here: http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/LoTR_ ... k_2010.pdf . 2009 had only the 1st the same. 2nd required good side to start on opposite edges and one evil in centre, one on an edge, control the centre again. 3rd had good side escaping through enemy board edge and 4th had just reduce below 25% total.
Author:  Hirumith, the Grey Knight [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:58 am ]
Post subject: 
I'll go ahead and toss out there that, if you're interested in playing some "Rambo"-style 1-man-army or Hero-only scenarios, it's worth fiddling around with the points on the opposing side a bit to even the odds. Look at some of the scenarios that GW has developed (especially involving the Fellowship) to get an idea for numbers or percentages, and use your past experience to sort out what seems like an even match-up.

We have found that this works well for friendly games.
Author:  doop dude [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:34 am ]
Post subject: 
I use the points cost of the Fellowship/Thorin's Company/A-Team divided by four. I believe this is similar to what GW does as well.

MoM Rulebook, Balin's Tomb Scenario, Points Match section wrote:
...the Good side should contain up to 750 points worth of Good Heroes. The Evil player should select up to 200 points worth of Evil models.


Peace
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Some of those scenarios allow the evil player to "recycle" their dead models though. The goal is obviously not to overwhelm the Hero forces with too many at one time but rather to give them the constant challenge of waves of weak forces.

This sort of match is fun for both sides but doesn't work for "to the death" style games very well. Rather you need a goal that the Hero force is trying to accomplish and the Horde force is trying to stop, such as protecting someone for enough turns, or getting across a gauntlet with minimal losses, etc.
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