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Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=32559		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Sephalo [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
I was just reading up on the rules a bit before I'll go into my first game but I'm a bit confused on the effect of spears...

If a unit with a sword gets supported by any unit with a spear it will seem as if the unit with the sword gets an additional attack. The strength of the spearman doesn't seem to matter at all right?

So in this scenario, if a Balrog is in contact with an enemy and a goblin spearman is supporting the balrog this theoretically means that the goblin gives the balrog a 2nd attack?!:O

Is this true? Because I can barely imagine this being true... :o
Author:  Wan Shi Tong [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
It seems that you have merged two edition of rules together for this one. In the Hobbit edition any sized base model with a spear can support any other (mounted, monster etc). However, the supporter contributes one attack at their own strength, fight, and with applicable special rules. In the old "Blue" edition of the rules models with spears could only support models on foot with a base size equal or smaller to them. It was this version that let a supporter simple add an additional attack to the guy he was supporting.

So you are right to think this is untrue because it not possible, in either edition, for a goblin to support a Balrog and give it an additional attack at the Balrog's own strength.
Author:  Sephalo [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
Ah, thanks a lot! I mixed some things up I guess. But I'm relieved to see that I was mistaken... It would've been a rather horrible scenario when a goblin would add a 9 strength attack. ;)
Author:  Bronf [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
its still looks silly though a goblin supporting such a huge monster
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
^I agree. I hope the new rulebook reverses this but modifies it that it's the spear support's strength being used. So basically take one step back on the rule.

I want them to revert how pikes are used as well.
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
It is the spear supports strength which is used. Pg 69 of the Hobbit rulebook "A spear armed model fighting in this way contributes a single Attack to the Fight at his own Fight value and using his own Strength." Unless you are referring to something else.
Author:  Bronf [ Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
Sacrilege83 wrote:
^I agree. I hope the new rulebook reverses this but modifies it that it's the spear support's strength being used. So basically take one step back on the rule.

I want them to revert how pikes are used as well.


what were the other pike rules? i know a pike and a pike can support a model but i thought that was allways the case what was it before?
Author:  largonien [ Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
Bronf wrote:
Sacrilege83 wrote:
^I agree. I hope the new rulebook reverses this but modifies it that it's the spear support's strength being used. So basically take one step back on the rule.

I want them to revert how pikes are used as well.


what were the other pike rules? i know a pike and a pike can support a model but i thought that was allways the case what was it before?


You could support a spear with a pike. Now you can only support a pike with a pike... No more Uruk shieldman - orc spear - Uruk pike ;)
Author:  Halin [ Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
largonien wrote:
Bronf wrote:
Sacrilege83 wrote:
^I agree. I hope the new rulebook reverses this but modifies it that it's the spear support's strength being used. So basically take one step back on the rule.

I want them to revert how pikes are used as well.


what were the other pike rules? i know a pike and a pike can support a model but i thought that was allways the case what was it before?


You could support a spear with a pike. Now you can only support a pike with a pike... No more Uruk shieldman - orc spear - Uruk pike ;)


Completely agreed there. They should reverse the support rules to LotR but use attacks, strength and fight of the supporter.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
^Yeah hopefully they readjusted that. I'm sure enough members of the community cringed when they changed the support rules when the Hobbit rule book came out. A goblin spear supporting a monster??? The spear wouldn't reach the target from the distance, lol. I know it is a game, but still... immersion. All these intricate rules involving doors, windows, leaping, climbing; the spear support rule feels out of place.

If the new rule book is suppose to be based off of the SBG community's wishes then they should bring back the old rules on pike and spear but leave in the modification of using the supporters own profile for the extra attack. No matter, we'll see the new rules pretty soon in its entirety.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
Oh, I love that a goblin can support a Cave Drake, but I probably shouldn't.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
You mean you love the ridiculousness of it, or you play goblins and you have a bias, or both. :wink:

What's even funnier, an archer still can't shoot over an ally that has a larger base in contact with the archer. I find it far more believable for a goblin to shoot an arrow through the legs of a cave drake without that drake being in the way or blocking line of sight. :)
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
Both :wink:

And yes, it is ridiculous that a goblin archer can't shoot under the Drakes belly when there's plenty of room, but a goblin with a minuscule spear too small to be the Drake's toothpick can somehow reach the past. Sometimes RAW have logic flaws, but I still prefer it most of the time.
Author:  Salattu [ Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
Simple solution to topic question would be: a supporter must have same or larger size bottom, but no other changes.
Author:  Salattu [ Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
And about pikes... There should be some modification of rules. Here is example what to do:

1. Pikeman can support from behind spearman or pikeman, supporting unit (just like always).
2. If pikeman is supported by a pikeman supported by a pikeman, he gets +2 defence against all melee.
3. If a spearman is supported by a pikeman supported by a pikeman, he gets +1 defence against all melee.
4. If a shieldman is supported by a pikeman supported by a pikeman, he only gets normal attack bonus. This is because the size of shield and using it denies best possible aid from pikemen.

I know this sounds odd at first, but this would make even most pro players a temptation to make a "real" pike or spear formation, without forcing them to. Carrot instead stick. If cavalry is coming, how many real war leaders would say "shields first, then spears"?
Author:  Bronf [ Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
Salattu wrote:
And about pikes... There should be some modification of rules. Here is example what to do:

1. Pikeman can support from behind spearman or pikeman, supporting unit (just like always).
2. If pikeman is supported by a pikeman supported by a pikeman, he gets +2 defence against all melee.
3. If a spearman is supported by a pikeman supported by a pikeman, he gets +1 defence against all melee.
4. If a shieldman is supported by a pikeman supported by a pikeman, he only gets normal attack bonus. This is because the size of shield and using it denies best possible aid from pikemen.

I know this sounds odd at first, but this would make even most pro players a temptation to make a "real" pike or spear formation, without forcing them to. Carrot instead stick. If cavalry is coming, how many real war leaders would say "shields first, then spears"?


the +2 defence and +1 no that would break the few armys that has pikes no thank you.
Author:  Salattu [ Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balrog + Spear goblin... really?!
What about this:

When a pikeman is supported by a pikeman supported by a pikeman, he gains +1 defence against all attacks.

This has the idea that people would not need to use shieldmen in the front anymore. Pike formations would simply look better if they were all-pike, it would not affect game otherwise, compared to shield-front + 2 pike. Well, ok, there is one thing. When the front line is dead, if there were more pikes in back, these pikes would get some bonus. But unless huge army of pikes, it would not ruin the game, or would it?
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