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| Azog/goblin King/Durburz/moria help. https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=32196 |
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| Author: | LordoftheBrownRing [ Tue May 31, 2016 11:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Azog/goblin King/Durburz/moria help. |
So I get so confused. Can anyone fill me in on the correct lore of this group? Who ran the Goblin armies that overran the dwarves? Also the whole timetable of Azog in the mountain, which mountain he was in before the Dwarves took back Erebor etc...I'm lost as heck. |
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| Author: | Wan Shi Tong [ Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Azog/goblin King/Durburz/moria help. |
I could give you a run down on the books version of events but if your asking about the movie then I'm not sure you'll get a canonical answer. As for who ran of the dwarves you'd need to specify what they were run off from exactly and which time. Since the dwarves have lost a lot of holdfasts and realms over the years. As the book has it Azog was the warlord who ruled over Moria at some point during the mid third age. He was running the place when Thror returned to Moria and he is the one who killed Thror; starting the War of the Dwarves and the Orcs. That war culminated in the Battle of Azanulbizar were Azog was killed and the dwarves won the day but don't renter Moria for fear of the Bolrog. Azog's son Bolg is the warlord who led the orcs of Gundabad to the battle of Five Armies. Its likely that Bolg was the guy calling the shots in Gundabad and probably the whole misty mountains too as a result. What Azog was doing and where he was is unknown if you follow the movies line of events but it seems that Azog was the King of the orcs in the Misty Mountains so it stands to reason that the would be moving around from Moria to Gundabad and to places in between. In the book the Goblin King or Great Goblin is the king or strongman of an orc hold in the mountains above Rivendell. He must have been either in league with or a vassal of Bolg, and a pretty important one too, because his death starts of the events which brought the goblins to the Battle of the Five Armies. Remember though in the books goblins and orcs aren't treated as separate but rather different but interchangeable names for the same creators. In the movie the Great Goblin seems to run his own show without any direct ties to Bolg or Azog. Durburz now, he was just a Game Workshop fabrication to give more narrative structure to Balin's expedition to Moria when they did a supplement on it. He would have basically been an orc strongman or king like the Great Goblin just in Moria. He was likely based on the Great Goblin too. But overall there is not much info on him save that he was the last of three you mentioned to be alive and the only one to be around for the War of the Ring. |
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| Author: | jdizzy001 [ Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Azog/goblin King/Durburz/moria help. |
@Wan: Thank you so much for specifying that goblins/orcs are the SAME thing in Tolkein's fantasy. So many people don't get that. I enjoy what has been done in the films to differentiate them (Goblins vs Orcs), but in the actual legendarium, they are one and the same. |
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| Author: | LordoftheBrownRing [ Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Azog/goblin King/Durburz/moria help. |
Wan thanks for the amazing post! And jdizzy yeah people dont. I get it but I like to differentiate considering we're on the site for the game. And if either of you can further elaborate or correct me.......here's where the real confusion comes in for me.... So.....Durburz is some tough goblin who was in charge of them at some point. Is it realistic though to say that Moria goblins could be technically led by people outside of their sourcebook for example?? The words are interchangeable but say for example did goblins that weak(moria profile) exist and fight under Azogs armies? Would the Goblin King from the Hobbit ever fight alongside moria goblins? Those are just a couple questions I have... |
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| Author: | jdizzy001 [ Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Azog/goblin King/Durburz/moria help. |
Check out this article http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Goblins In a nutshell, all goblins, hob-goblins, greater goblins and orcs are from Angband under the Iron Mts. They are the "creations" of Melkor thus Sauron would have inherited them when he became the Dark Lord, meaning, technically, Moria, Goblin Town and Angmar cultures are a part of the Mordor culture. |
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| Author: | Wan Shi Tong [ Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Azog/goblin King/Durburz/moria help. |
Moria goblins did make common cause with Isenguard and Mordor orcs when going after the fellowship in the book. Aragorn talks about goblin soldier like the ones they saw in Moria and during Pipin's chapters in the TT goblins from Moria are heard to complain about the Isenguarders. So I think its fair to assume that they could be used as allies by other evil armies. More so when you consider that Moria goblins are the standard goblin profile in the same way that Mordor orcs are the standard orc profile. As to whether you'd find then as allies with movie Azog or Goblin Town I'd argue no. Given how Azog is developed in the film and the level of connection he has to Sauron directly he army would be mostly orc based or more strongly bread at least. If you went with a more book based interpretation of things then it would make more sense because the army that Azog had at Azanulbizar war made up of the remints of many other orc holds in the Misty Mountains. As was the one Bolg took to Erebor so you could probably swing it. With Goblin Town, again going by the film, they don't seem like the time that would march openly to war as a kingdom. Nor was the Goblin King the sort of fella to lead people into battle himself. So I don't think you would have a real lore bases for having then on the field together. The question that is raised by the hobbit however is whether or not the Goblin Town goblins are exclusive to Goblin Town or if there are other groups of those sort out there. Since we do see them at the Battle of the Five Armies as cannon fodder and as sappers of sorts I am inclined to belief that Jackson made them the Hobbits standard goblin model to save time. |
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| Author: | LordoftheBrownRing [ Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Azog/goblin King/Durburz/moria help. |
Another fantastic answer thanks a lot. Yeah I just wanted to do correctly while at the same time bringing in more troop options with Azog and Bolg. I hate you can only take two units in their army. Also they're so costly it's probably nice to fit some Lowe point goblins in. I'd love to see gundabad blackshields able to be led by Azog and Bolg in an update but unlikely. Either way thanks again. I have a lot to consider for armies. I agree in the movies the Goblin King would never March to war I just wondered if technically he and those goblins from Moria could replace each other. The way the make them look so differently kills it. |
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