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800 Points Minas Tirith
https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=34118		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Drizhanor [ Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  800 Points Minas Tirith
Hello there,

Only recently came back to SBG from a decade long hiatus. What do you guys think of this 800p MT list? The idea is 6 knights with lances at each flank led by Faramir and Hurin, supported by F4 Rangers.

In the middle I have a shieldwall led by Ingold, with 8 Warriors, a banner and 7 Guards of the Fountain Court. And crucially, a bolt thrower with Swift Reload which the enemy can't ignore, drawing at least a substantial portion of the enemy towards the middle, giving some leeway to the flankers.

1st Company - 16 models, 272p
Faramir
6 Knights
4 Rangers
2 Rangers Spear
2 Fountain Court

2nd Company - 16 models, 252p
Hurin
6 Knights
4 Rangers
2 Rangers Spear
2 Fountain Court

3rd Company - 13 models, 199p
Ingold
4 Sword
4 Spear
1 Banner
3 Fountain Court

4th Company - 3 models, 77p
Bolt Thrower
1 Extra Crew
Author:  Manadar [ Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 800 Points Minas Tirith
Faramir isn't good enough to be a leader at 800 pts, he will get killed quickly.
Further, I think you have too many knights, 6/8 would be fine. This list has too many low def targets and as they don't have much offensive power through sheer warrior strengh or good heroes, you will lose rather quickly. Remember even so rangers hit rather often they won't wound that much.
Author:  Drizhanor [ Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 800 Points Minas Tirith
Thanks for the tips!
Author:  Dwarves4thewin! [ Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 800 Points Minas Tirith
I think Manadar is right about the knights.
Maybe you can drop some to swap Faramir for Boromir or Aragorn.
But I think you have to drop something else.
And I really like the avenger bolt thrower, a tip to have one that is more deadly and I think better worth the points, is to upgrade it with swift reload.

If you have played with the army, let us know how it went and what you like and dislike of the army. I'm curious to see how Ingold and Hurin will do in battle.
Author:  Drizhanor [ Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 800 Points Minas Tirith
Did some changes to the army based on Manadar's tips and after watching some battle reports online. I've noticed that terrain more often than not will block extensive maneuvering on the flanks, so toned it down a notch. The upcoming game will be played on a board with ample terrain pieces.

Changed the heroes to Boromir on foot and banner, and Denethor because of his cheap points cost, allowing me to field a bolt thrower without sacrificing the numbers. Will be keeping Hurin which has a nice synergy with Denethor.

The upcoming battle will be vs Isengard allied with Angmar, perhaps even a cave drake from the Moria list. My opponent will most likely be using a shade as well. My plan is to trust my high number 4F 7D frontline, and slowly grind his army down. The bolt thrower will hopefully deal with the shade early on, especially if I can deploy it on high ground. Changed Rangers to Citadel Guards for the 3S bows.

Could swap Boromir for Gandalf to steadily remove the Shade's will, in addition to immobilizing the drake. But I worry that will affect the melee killing power because of the lack of a killer hero and 4F frontline. However, I don't have Boromir on horse, so it might be worth bringing Gandalf instead.

800p, 47 models, 10 might

1st Company - 13 models, 307p
Boromir - Shield, Banner
6 Sword
6 Spear

2nd Company - 15 models, 163p
Denethor
6 Sword
6 Spear
2 Knights

3rd Company - 16 models, 253p
Mounted Hurin
7 Fountain Court Shields
6 Citadel Guards Bow
2 Knights

4th Company - 3 models, 77p
Bolt Thrower Swift Reload
1 Extra Crew
Author:  Wan Shi Tong [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 800 Points Minas Tirith
I think the new list looks pretty good. I would keep Boromir for the time being and see how he does. I have tried both he and Gandalf in my lists and have found that I prefer having Boromir most of the time. If you can shoot the drake or shade down early on you should be fine.
Author:  Drizhanor [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 800 Points Minas Tirith
Thanks, going for Boromir then. Changed Denethor for Ingold and converted Knights to mounted Citadel Guards with spears using green stuff.
Author:  Aldaron [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 800 Points Minas Tirith
A friend of mine is playing a very similar list right now (he's proxying some stuff and tries out some combinations right now). So I gained some experience during the last few months playing against different combinations of the heros and troops you mentioned.

The Denethor + Hurin Synergy is great at smaller points (up to 500p), as Denethor is dirt cheap (so you can run lots of troops) and he never failed his courage test at effectively C6 and W3. But at higher points (we were playing 700p the last few times) it didn't work as well at all, so Boromir is recommended here.

Faramir is unfortunately really just "meh". He'd deserve more (he's one of my favorites in the books and movies). He's average at everything, but not really good at anything and his special rule is really bad (automatically passing courage tests at effectively C7? With a downside!?), especially compared to similar ones (Eomer, Theodred).

Bolt Thower with swift reload is always recommended! I just hate that thing. Statistically 4,5 shots per turn with K4+ and S7 is a huge thread and area denial (and also dirt cheap). It's probably the only reliable ranged combat unit against absurdly high D armies (like Dwarfs or Dunharrow), +1 extra crew is also paying off.

I think Ingold is a great choice, his special rule is really frustrating for the opponent and in my opinion the shieldwall rule is the key to Minas Tirith armies in this edition.

This leads to my critique about your army list: I can't think of a reason to run a mounted Hurin and mounted Citadel Guards (except for fluff/aesthetic reasons, which I'd totally understand).
1) When you're not using Denethor, Boromir is your army leader. As he's not as vulnerable, Hurins special rule is not as usefull. The second reason to take Hurin, is his melee strength by wielding his bihanded sword - which you can't use on horseback. So you're basically paying +30p for a captain with +1F,+1C and +1M that can't even shieldblock. Even Faramir is better in this case!
2) Citadel Guards are unfortunately not as good as they used to be, having to choose between spear and bow now and not being able to shieldwall; but they're still usefull because of their S3 bows. Having F4 is important now, I guess, but they're still too expensive compared to a regular WoMT (which costs 1p less with spear, has -1F but the shieldwall rule vs. the bodyguard rule, which isn't as usefull within a C4 army). Now compared with the knights of MT it's even worse: a Citadel Guard on horse is 3p more expensive (I don't even know why the horse is so much?), still it has it's F4, but it doesn't have a lance and it doesn't have a shield (which the knight can use to shieldwall as well should his horse be killed; so he's still usefull!) and the spears aren't very useful on a cavalry model.
As I said, if it's for aesthetic reasons, I'd always go for it, but strategically, I'd drop most of the elite units, go for standart WoMT and buy Boromir his banner, it has almost the same effect but you keep the shieldwall rule.
Author:  Drizhanor [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 800 Points Minas Tirith
Thanks, these are very useful tips, especially the ones regarding Hurin. Didn't know that Master-forged bonus only works on foot and his lackluster cost-effectiveness. I like his Heroic Strike though.

I tried the stated list against my opponent (who fielded a horde of Dunlendings, Uruk Ferals, Crossbows, Angmar Shade, Cave Drake and lots of wild wargs). I lost the game.

My rather weak flanks melted away, the Bolt Thrower was useless because we deployed in each other's faces and the mounted citadel guards were certainly not worth their points. WoMT, Fountain guards, Ingold and Boromir were MVP's. Sadly, Boromir was swallowed whole by the Cave Drake's "Gaping Maw" after those and Hurin had been duking it out for the length of the game. Hilarious.

The next game, which was against the same list, I kept the Fountain Guards but ditched the Bolt Thrower, Hurin and the Citadel Guards. Added Madril, Rangers and KoMT to guard the flanks. Bashed those pesky Dunlending faces in with Gwahihir, a mounted banner-wielding Boromir and an unflinching shieldwall - Total victory!

Gwahihir, Rangers and KoMT's were very useful in threatening his flanks and rear, which I struggled with during the first battle.

I'll give the Bolt Thrower another go - ditching Gwahihir for the Bolt Thrower (perhaps two?), bringing it out on the flank defended by rangers and Knights for the "shooting hammer and anvil" tactic. This maneuver would depend on the terrain though.

Again, I really appreciate all the tips, l've learned a lot. Thanks!
Author:  Wan Shi Tong [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 800 Points Minas Tirith
I'm going to have't step in here to defend Hurin the Tall.

Aldaron wrote:
The second reason to take Hurin, is his melee strength by wielding his bihanded sword - which you can't use on horseback.


Why can't you use a two-handed sword while mounted? I checked the two-handed entry, the master forged entry, Hurin's profile, and the cavalry in combat entry but could not find a rule restricting it. I know that it wasn't possible in old editions but they restriction seems to have been removed. Did I miss something?

With the master forged sword active, Hurin is the best bruiser Minas Tirith has outside it's two main heroes (Boromir and Aragorn). He makes a solid secondary threat to both infantry and heroes below 1000pts. I looked at him and figured Faramir was just obsolete since Hurin does his job better.

Assuming the two-handed can't be used mounted, I would still argue in support of Hurin being used on foot to support an infantry formation. He can oppose monsters and most of the evil and human heroes (stuff Boromir isn't fighting) way better than a the regular or named captains.

If you are building a list for Minas Tirith at 600-800pts, I don't see why one wouldn't want to include him.
Author:  Drizhanor [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 800 Points Minas Tirith
I've done some thinking - Hurin is certainly useful, I'd say he's an auto-include in most army lists. F5, heroic strike, hero of valour, master-forged sword and an utterly badass pose for only 80-90p. I also like the special rule regarding VP's and the army leader. Allows for a more aggressive playstyle with army leaders in the relevant scenarios.

He's a bit squishy at 2W and 1 Fate. He was 1-shotted by the Cave Drake when he and Boromir's dice rolls failed miserably. That could easily have gone the other way though.
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