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Mordor 600 pts
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Author:  kinematik [ Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Mordor 600 pts
Hello!
I am Mordor player and I am little confused. I tried different lists, but often my duels end in failure. The elves are my most frequent enemy, and I can not beat them. Maybe I started with a high shelf, because we mostly play 700-800 points. Could you help me create a list for 600 points from my models? I would not like to send my conspiracy at the moment, so that you do not suggest. I would ask for help.


Model Units
Nazgul/Witch King on Winged Beast 1
The Tainted F/M 1
Gothmog F/M 1
Shagrat 1
Gorbag 1
Mordol Troll 1
Shelob 1
Orc Shaman on Warg 1
Morannon Orcs 36
Black Numeroan Marshal 1
Morgul Knights 16
Black Guard Commander 1
Black Guard Drummer 1
Black Guard Standar 1



Or maybe what I need to buy to improve army power?
Author:  Wan Shi Tong [ Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
Hmm. An interesting question. What sort of elves are you fighting and what are they doing to you? I would think you have the ability to run an army comprising most of your Morannon orcs as basic troops. The question is then which tools to bring in support to meet which challenges. The Witchking, heavy horsemen, the troll, Shelob and Gothmog. All look like they might do something but I would like to know a little more before I make a suggestion. I do not think you need to go out an buy something though. You've already got plenty of tools.
Author:  kinematik [ Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
Most often he has Glorfindel + Erestor or Elrond + Arwena, about 6-10 horses and normal elf warriors. The thing which make me annoying is that, i do not need to roll on fight, because 8/10 times he win. I dont even need to roll :(
Author:  Cave Dragon [ Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
kinematik wrote:
Hello!
I am Mordor player and I am little confused. I tried different lists, but often my duels end in failure. The elves are my most frequent enemy, and I can not beat them. Maybe I started with a high shelf, because we mostly play 700-800 points. Could you help me create a list for 600 points from my models? I would not like to send my conspiracy at the moment, so that you do not suggest. I would ask for help.


Model Units
Nazgul/Witch King on Winged Beast 1
The Tainted F/M 1
Gothmog F/M 1
Shagrat 1
Gorbag 1
Mordol Troll 1
Shelob 1
Orc Shaman on Warg 1
Morannon Orcs 36
Black Numeroan Marshal 1
Morgul Knights 16
Black Guard Commander 1
Black Guard Drummer 1
Black Guard Standar 1



Or maybe what I need to buy to improve army power?

So you have black guard and such, but I find S4 is all I need.
This is my 500pt list, and my logic, skip to the bottom if you don't need it. I thought it out while typing. :roll:
Mordor
Type Number Unit Additional Wargear Cost
Leader 1 Gorbag shield
Warrior 6 Orc shield
Warrior 6 Orc spear
Warrior 3 Orc 2 handed
Total: 16 150
Captain 1 Orc Captain none
Warrior 5 Orc shield
Warrior 5 Orc spear
Warrior 2 Orc 2 handed
Total: 13 117
Captain 1 Orc Captain none
Warrior 5 Orc shield
Warrior 5 Orc spear
Warrior 2 Orc 2 handed
Total: 13 117
Captain 1 Orc Captain shield, warg
Cavalry 2 Warg Rider spear, bow
Cavalry 2 Warg Rider spear
Total: 5 115
499
As you can see, it is a bit of a spam army. It has no heavy heroes besides Gorbag, so Aragorn, Sauron, the Balrog, etc will pose a challenge. However, I tend to outnumber my foes 2-1 or more, meaning no matter how hard they try their elite units are bound to slip up. When this happens, my two handed weapons and picks are ready with S4 hits. Everyone is expendable, so the defense loss does not matter. The goal is to mob and encircle your enemy. This list has worked against mounted Rivendell featuring Saruman, so you should find this works. Now for the final touch on this list to make it a viable one at higher points values...
I would snag a Mordor Troll Chieftain, as he works quite well. He and Gorbag will be able to take down heavy heroes together. The high fight value will be nice, and he is quite durable and stronger, more so than the average troll. That is 140 pts.
BOTTOM :lol:
With this in mind, make your Troll a chieftain, use Gorbag and Gothmog with a plethora of Morannon orcs. Give the heroes shields.
Good luck!
Author:  kinematik [ Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
Last time I tested Dwimmerlaik againt his hero army, and that was a really good point, but still Boromir and Aragor and Might which they have are incredible.

I will say that, I know that morannons are a good unit, but the biggest problem is that I get a charge from riders and I lose 80% of the fight. It is terribly annoying. Even if I make a heroic strike, I get the same in response, and unfortunately I'm dying. I recently had 39 models(18morc+shield, 18morc shield+spear,Gorbag, Shagrat and Troll Chieftan) for 25 elves in the run-up, and I did not even kill them up to 50%, where I had the chieftana troll and Shagrath.
I wonder more and more about With-King on Fell-Beast, I would only need hints on how to play it to make the model pay off.

Is playing a channeled transfix, then heroic combat, and after winning an escape is what it should focus on or somehow differently?
Author:  Wan Shi Tong [ Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
Interesting. Elrond at the head of a cav unit it hard to counter without a large investment in something to stop nature's wrath. I will start by recommending the following at 600pts.

Troll Chieftain
6 Morranon with shield
6 Morranaon with shield and spear

Black Guard Captain
Black guard with standard
5 Morranon with shield
6 Morranon with shield and spear

Black Numenorean Marshal
4 morgal knights

The objective here is to use the cavalry to screen off and delay in combat the cavalry of your opponent so your troll chief and the infantry can surround and kill his infantry. The troll chief is the only thing that can really threaten a elven lord in a straight fight and it should be able to kill Erestor too. Keep the banner by the troll for re-rolling against heroes and in a few key heroic combats. If your opponent brings a big hero you will see it cut into the elven warrior and cavalry number enough for you to have a chance at overwhelming them with your infantry and heroes. I do not have a counter for nature's wrath though. The witchking on fell beast would do but he would not be very helpful against Glorfindel. Think of this list as an anti Glorfindel build I suppose.

What do you think?
Author:  Cave Dragon [ Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
Yes, Troll Chieftains can also heroic strike if need be(Gil Galad).
Author:  kinematik [ Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
It looks very solid, I will check it out sooner. Today I have received a set of Warg Riders, I can think of something with them and a gothmog about the rumors that Gothmog will be corrected in Gondor At War.

As for the schedule, yesterday I had just Captain Black Guard and his Fight saved me a bit and let me survive several turns more.

What if instead of Black Numenorean Marshal, take Mouth of Sauron? He would stop casting spells a little.
Author:  Cave Dragon [ Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
I don't have much experience in the spell department, as I find that unless it is a permanent effect, such as giving damage or shatter, it is costly. Might I suggest using fury, though, as it can help your forces out.
Author:  ja33 [ Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
Not sure I understand how you're losing 80% of the fights .... With the higher fight value, he should still only be winning around 58% of the fights - not to mention that you should outnumber him every game at least 3 to 2 as your models are cheaper in points, so you 'should' actually have more dice in each fight. Him winning 80% of fights is basically mathematically impossible, unless you're doing the combat phase wrong or he has 'loaded' dice. :)

Are you sure that you are doing the combat phase correctly ?
Author:  kinematik [ Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
Yes, I am sure everything is right. His Fight value is higher, and he has really luck to roll 6's. When I am winning combat against his heroes he is using Might to increase roll to 6 and I am often dead :P
Sohow when I am try to move into combat he just move away to shoot me and kill some clue models. Last time in 3 turn my troll was dead, yesterday Gorbag was hiding in 3rd line, he tried to shoot thru lanes. He made it perfectly and my Gorbag was not useful anymore. I am feeling little disballane at the moment.
Author:  ja33 [ Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
Well then I'd be wondering about his dice...you're only supposed to roll a 6 on 16% of your dice rolls (mathematically)...even rolling 2 or 3 dice per fight only bumps that number to less than 50%...not sure how he can be rolling 6's as often as you say....just doesn't add up

And also not sure how he can move away from you in combat and still shoot ? If he moves his full distance to back away, then he can't shoot. If he moves half his move to still be able to shoot, then you should be able to reach him....
Author:  ja33 [ Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
Here's the actual math, if you're interested...

The chances of rolling a 6 are.....

with one die - 16%
with two dice - 30%
with three dice - 42&
with four dice - 52%
with five dice - 60%
with six dice - 66%
with seven dice - 72%
with eight dice - 75%
with nine dice - 81%
Author:  Cave Dragon [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
kinematik wrote:
Yes, I am sure everything is right. His Fight value is higher, and he has really luck to roll 6's. When I am winning combat against his heroes he is using Might to increase roll to 6 and I am often dead :P
Sohow when I am try to move into combat he just move away to shoot me and kill some clue models. Last time in 3 turn my troll was dead, yesterday Gorbag was hiding in 3rd line, he tried to shoot thru lanes. He made it perfectly and my Gorbag was not useful anymore. I am feeling little disballane at the moment.

Heroic move, and also gran some Haradrim archers if need be.
Author:  kinematik [ Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
What Can I do if really he roll 8 times 6's in a row? Should I record it? :P
I know the math chances so...
Author:  Cave Dragon [ Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
Do the dice dance, and run around the table to steal his luck.
Author:  kinematik [ Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
Sounds like a plan! :D
Author:  Cave Dragon [ Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
The table thing does work, though.
Author:  Asamu [ Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
kinematik wrote:
Most often he has Glorfindel + Erestor or Elrond + Arwena, about 6-10 horses and normal elf warriors. The thing which make me annoying is that, i do not need to roll on fight, because 8/10 times he win. I dont even need to roll :(
His list has a pretty low model count. Once you get into combat with it, you should be able to take down the warriors pretty quickly with your heroes/monsters. The hard part will be getting there vs so many mounted models. Nature's wrath shouldn't be too much of a problem if you bring a wraith and cast sap will on Arwen and Elrond.

If you had a catapult, I'd suggest trying it out and fielding as many bodies in front of it as you can get with a budget wraith or the shadow lord on foot/horse; you'd only need a few hits for the catapult to pay for itself killing/dismounting knights and heroes.

With your models, I'd run:

The Witch King w/ crown 3/15/2 on Fell beast, the Shadow Lord on Fell beast (protects priority targets from shooting), or Khamul on Fell beast (can be bumped to F6 with a point of will to do better vs the regular elves) - avoid Glorfindel. Hunt down the other heroes with transfix/compel; don't channel it. Just call a strike in the fight phase, unless you really want to heroic combat, but then you're burning 2 might on the same turn. This way, even if the spell is resisted, you can just go into something else.
16 Morannon Orcs. 8 w/ shield, 7 w/ spear and shield, 1 w/ spear, shield, and Banner

A Mordor Troll Chieftain (if he lets you run your Mordor Troll as one; otherwise, Gorbag w/shield with the troll is probably your best option)
12 Morannon Orcs. 6 w/ shield, 6 w/ spear and shield.

This comes out to 598 points. At 700, things should actually get a bit easier for you; add in a few knights and keep them in reserve to counter-charge his knights and deny the charge bonus, and bring a mounted hero or Shelob to do the same.

Sap Will on Arwen early if you can so he can't cast nature's wrath.

Assuming 3 dice are rolled, he has a ~72% chance of winning fights where you only roll 2 dice, or 65% when you also roll 3 dice; it's a similar case when he's rolling 2 dice vs your 2, so losing most of the fights is to be expected; Glorfindel and Elrond get to roll 4 dice to win fights, or 5 if in range of a banner, so are expected to win 65-85% of their fights. The extra strength/defense of Morannons makes up for it if you're fighting with equal numbers against the regular elves; there's not a whole lot you can do vs Glorfindel with his free 2 dice to resist magic and 3 will, but you can transfix/compel any other heroes to shut them down when you need to.

Monsters can and barge to disrupt spear support; it's sometimes worth calling heroic combats just for that. You get to pick the directions his models back away, so force his models to back away their 3" through the spear supports and banners (which also forces the spear supports/banners to back away 3" in a direction of your choice), so you can make more use of your numbers advantage. Elves only rolling 1 dice to win the fight/wound aren't scary; it's a problem when they are rolling 3. Both monsters can be potentially used to dismount/kill his cavalry with hurls/barges/heroic combats as well.

You can screen the troll behind your orcs to force in the way checks and mostly protect it from getting shot or charged early.
Author:  Cave Dragon [ Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor 600 pts
Yes^^^^^^^^
I reccomend a troll cheitain, they are more reliable for 40 points more.
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